Revolvers and Ammo Consealed Carry

[robertrwalsh]

Two speed strips dor Colt DS. Three speed loaders for larger revolvers.

 

[TomkinsSP]

Normally, I'll carry a 686+, and a speed strip. The odds are overwhelming that I'll never need it, but it's flat, light and easy to carry. It makes me feel better - and it's my version of a fidget spinner.

I also practice with a speed loader, and carry one on rare occasions, just for fun. However, speed loaders tend to be bulky, even small ones like the HKS, and even when carried in a slip over carrier that reduces the profile. I practice with one large because I enjoy the challenge of maxing out pistol qualification courses with a revolver. It makes the hi cap pistol guys grumpy when you beat them with a revolver, and that's called "fun".

Reloads in the real world.

In terms of real world self defense, it's hard to overlook the reality that 95% of all self defense shoots involve 5 rounds or less in 5 seconds or less. In fact the FBI found based on 12 years of agent involved shoots that 75% of all shoots occurred at 3 yards or less with 3 rounds or less fired in 3 seconds or less.

The truth is unless you are incredibly unlucky, you just are not going to need a reload, even with a 5 shot revolver. The probability of even being in a self defense shoot is very low (and even lower if you're using common sense and good situational awareness), and in the event that low probability occurs the odds are only 1 in 20 that you'd need more than 5 rounds.

I know... you're probably not buying this argument because all the tacti-cool-done-time-downrange instructors talk about the need for high capacity pistols, reloads, multiple magazines, etc - including the recent NRA self defense programs.

Let's look at the numbers....

Based on FBI data, in any given year there are only around 300 justifiable homicides involving armed citizens. That sounds low, but it compares to about 400 each year by law enforcement officers, which actually makes the armed citizen total pretty significant - they are facing and shooting threats at fully 3/4 the the rate of police officers.

Bear in mind however that it's estimated that roughly 40% of law abiding adults in the US own a firearm (which would be around 96 million gun owners), compared to about 120,000 federal and 680,000 state and local full time police officers in the US (800,000 total). That 96 million is very rough as it is very hard to get accurate numbers on gun ownership, since we don't require registration (thank God) and many people, particularly women, won't disclose that they own a gun in a poll or survey. We do know there were 11.1 million people with concealed carry permits in 2014, and while we don't know how many of those actively conceal carry, it's safe to say they own a gun.

The number of assailants killed however is a very misleading as the number of times an armed citizen uses a handgun in self defense is estimated at between 65,000 and 80,000 times per year - with a significant number of these probably never being reported to the police.

That suggests the assailant is shot and killed only about .5% of the time when a gun is used in self defense. That's not all that surprising however as even bad guys don't like to get shot, and producing a gun ha s profound psychological effect on an assailant, particularly when they were not expecting the potential victim to be armed.

Estimates vary, but it's believed that producing a gun is sufficient to stop an assailant in about 70% to 95% of instances where a gun is brandished in self defense.

If you carry a high capacity semi-auto and a pair of spare magazines, you're probably not going to like this...

Based on the most conservative numbers up above, you have only a .00083% probability of drawing your handgun in self defense in any given year. If you have to draw it in self defense the probability you will have to shoot it only .30, and if you fire, the probability is only .05 that you'll need more than 5 rounds in the engagement.

In summary, this year the probabilities for us average armed citizens are:

0.00083 (0.083%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.000249 (0.0249%)that we'll need to fire; and
.00001245 (0.002145%) that we'll need to reload.

In other words, the need for a reload in an armed citizen self defense shoot exists in just 1 in approximately 80,000 self defense shoots.

Even if we only consider the 11.1 million concealed carry permit holders, the numbers look like this:

0.0072 (0.72%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.00216 (0.216%)that we'll need to fire; and
.000108 (0.0108%) that we'll need to reload.

That's a reload needed in just 1 in 10,000 armed citizen self defense shoots.

Training and EDC implications

If you want to train for that incredibly low probability event, and carry a high capacity semi-auto with 2 spare magazine to be ready for that extremely low probability event - by all means knock yourself out.

But be realistic and honest enough to admit that you're prepping for some sort of post apocalyptic zombie scenario or maybe a mall ninja terrorist scenario, rather than a real world need.

There are more productive areas to spend your training time and dollars. I'd much rather see shooters shooting often, and working on:

- developing a consistent grip that facilitates automatic alignment of the rear sight with the front sight as you draw and present the weapon;
- developing an ingrained habit of verifying the rear sight alignment in slow fire, and at speed, verifying the placement of the front blade on target and relying on the grip o take care of rear sight alignment (the whole process becomes incredibly fast once the grip is properly developed and makes accurate self defense shooting and decent bullet placement possible);
- drawing and shooting from concealment; and
-developing the footwork needed to draw and shoot while moving laterally, or to the rear, toward cover.

All of the above will make you far more effective in a gun fight than practicing a reload you'll (for all practical purposes) never need.

Besides, rather than wasting training dollars on this in a class, you can practice a reload by doing a tactical reload every time you load your handgun, rather than doing an administrative reload. What do I mean? If you feel you want to carry a speed strip or speed loader, use the speed strip or speed loader, every time you load your revolver. Over weeks, months and years, doing this under time pressure, you'll develop the muscle memory to load pretty effectively under fire if the need ever arises.

You can also do it at the range and find what works best for you and your particular revolver - the FBI reload, the Universal Reload, or the Stress Fire reload. A google search will educate you on the differences, and the pros and cons of each.

If you carry a semi-auto pistol, there's some justification for carrying a spare magazine even if you'll never need the extra rounds. In the event you get a mis-feed, any jam that is not resolved with a quick tap-rack-bang immediate action is probably best addressed by dropping the magazining, clearing the weapon and inserting your spare magazine.

However, the idea that you might get a misfeed is based largely on what happens in a practical pistol match or range session where you're shooting maybe 300 rounds of cast bullet reloads cranked off you progressive press without cleaning your pistol. A failure to feed is a lot more likely in that scenario than it is with your recently cleaned self defense pistols shooting high quality self defense rounds that you've tested for reliability (at least 200 rounds down range without a failure).

If you're expecting a failure to feed with your self defense pistol and ammunition, you're clearly carrying the wrong pistol and/or ammunition.

On the job for over 20 years, I carried an M64 while wearing the sack, never used it, other than to qualify. Carried M40 as backup and M36 later. The MOST rounds I ever fired on the streets was 12 (against 3 armed skells). After my first street incident (fired 2 rounds then) I took to carrying 5 loose rounds with me, today they are in my jeans watch pocket. That way I coud quickly replace the two spent rounds without popping the speedloaders out of my shoulder rig (or strips out of my belt pouch etc). Few encounters (even by Police) REQUIRE reloads, its really just peace of mind. (So I always carry a strip.)

 

[Mehutch]

BB57 -
A lot of long fancy words for a simple shooter there BB57.

In my 65 years on planet Earth I have had to draw my weapon 4 times to stop a few aggressors. No one got shot, but it stopped them cold from any other action they had in mind. One was a big black bear, an angry black bear, we both lived.

Two time that I was unarmed I had a double barrel shotgun held to me head (Watts CA) and a Uzi pressed to my forehead (in Brussels).

All your stats sound correct but for me I'll stick with my plan... big bullets and lots of follow up.

 

[Old cop]

As a retiree carrying a J frame w/a speed strip, plus a couple of speed loaders in the car, I recognize I'm way over what's needed. But during my LEO career I was in a gunfight where I ran out of ammo (six in the gun plus one reload) and that had a profound and lasting impact on me. Since then (1974) there is always at least a couple of reloads close by.

 

[JohnK]

There is NO penalty, for having left over ammo, AFTER the fight is over.

 

[loknload]

One J frame and 2 speedloaders....that is all

 

[Walkingwolf]

There is NO penalty, for having left over ammo, AFTER the fight is over.

I stay out of trouble by playing what if as I go about my day. I carry extra ammo because I play what if.

 

[jimmyj]

400 rounds on my person and as many as my pack mule's back can take

 

[Doug M.]

Doc Roberts reported on an incident near his home while walking his dog that convinced him that the G19 with (IIRC) at least one reload is the new J frame. In the vicinity of where he lives, that's reasonable.

On duty with a 1911, I carried 4 spare mags on my belt and several more in the box of stuff on my seat, along with at least 5 total for my AR. I worked in a rural area, and we could be alone a long time. With the G21, 3 spare mags on the belt, more in the box and with my rifle.

Now, most of the time, a G33 with one spare mag, plus there is one in my console, and a heavy revolver in a bugout bag. (I used to work in a gang infested hell hole and made some "friends".) When traveling, unless I am going to someplace dumb where there is a capacity limit, a G17 (cut to 19 grip size) with at least one spare mag on me and another in car, plus whatever BUG and at least a shotgun with slugs. A lot of my travel takes me through places that are isolated, have spots with iffy cell service, and no real expectation of a useful LE response time if I can get through to them.

 

[BB57]

Good data. You cannot prepare for everything. For most applications, you should have brought a rifle. That being said, just carrying a serviceable firearm filled with modern self defense hollow points that you are proficient with gives you a leg up on most of the population in terms of self defense.

That being said, a 5 shot snub is more than enough unless I am venturing into a place that I feel uncomfortable.

I live rural. In a low crime area.I do not feel the need or desire to carry my hicaps.

I also follow the 4S rule:

I avoid: Stupid people, doing Stupid things, and/or going to Stupid places, at Stupid times.


The 442 or Bulldog work just fine for me.

This. I live in a very warm climate and don't dress around the gun. I have a pocket carried PD 340 with 5 x 357.. I might have a speed strip on me, with at least two speed loaders in the car.

I'm not a cop anymore, so I just stay away from the areas where I feel like I need a hi-cap on me.

As a retiree carrying a J frame w/a speed strip, plus a couple of speed loaders in the car, I recognize I'm way over what's needed. But during my LEO career I was in a gunfight where I ran out of ammo (six in the gun plus one reload) and that had a profound and lasting impact on me. Since then (1974) there is always at least a couple of reloads close by.

These are great posts that illustrate a couple of related concepts.

First, LEOs often have the need to go into dark and scary places looking for bad guys. It's part of the job, but even then a smart LEP is going to call for back up. After all, another LEO backing you up is way better than a reload.

As an aside, there is also data that clearly shows the average number of rounds fired per officer in an officer involved shoot increases the more officers are on scene from 2 point something for a single officer to 3 point something for two officers to 4 point something for 3 officers. (Excuse the point somethings - I don't feel like digging up that data at the moment). Some folks feel that's due to a group effect where officers shoot more because other officers are shooting. That might account for some of the effect, but the practical guy in me says that more officers are on scene in the first place because there is an elevated level of threat in the first place, with greater potential for multiple armed suspects. Thus more rounds fired per officer makes sense.

The point here is that if you are an armed citizens with a reasonable degree of common sense, you'll be smart enough to avoid going into places where you might need to use a weapon in self defense.

In addition, if you have and use a reasonable degree of situational awareness you'll be smart enough to recognize those places before you get in to a situation you shouldn't be in.

Second, while it's separate from what you carry on your person, and not directly related to what the OP asked, I'm a big proponent of carrying plenty of ammunition in my vehicle. That's partly because I was the second on scene where a pot (pot belly livestock trailer) had over turned, with the result that there were about 60 yearling heifers with broken legs, serious injuries etc, and very few of them were killed outright in the accident. The state trooper on scene didn't have enough ammunition to humanely dispatch them all of the severely injured animals. This was back in the day when the revolver was still king, however revolver or pistol, I've carried two 50 round boxes of ammunition in my vehicle ever since.

 

[TomkinsSP]

There is NO penalty, for having left over ammo, AFTER the fight is over.

No, and carrying those two full .50cal ammo cans will build nice muscles. ;-)

 

[BB57]

BB57 -
A lot of long fancy words for a simple shooter there BB57.

In my 65 years on planet Earth I have had to draw my weapon 4 times to stop a few aggressors. No one got shot, but it stopped them cold from any other action they had in mind. One was a big black bear, an angry black bear, we both lived.

Two time that I was unarmed I had a double barrel shotgun held to me head (Watts CA) and a Uzi pressed to my forehead (in Brussels).

All your stats sound correct but for me I'll stick with my plan... big bullets and lots of follow up.

I've relied on a drawn handgun on two occasions to stop an assailant, and neither time involved actually firing it. However, both were work related and not situations where an armed citizen with any sense would or should be.

There's a big difference between the situations LEOs are in and the situations armed citizens should be in, and the EDC requirements vary accordingly.

Several years ago I almost drew a weapon in an armed citizen capacity. I'd just gotten $200 from an ATM and was in a hurry to get to the AT&T store before it closed to replace my phone. It was dark (a few minutes before 9pm). I took a wrong turn, immediately recognized this was the wrong street and started turning to reverse course. At that point I saw a latino in a hoody right behind me closing fast with one hand coming out of his pocket and the other arm extending toward me. As I turned and saw him, my left hand instinctively went up to block an assault and create some more time/space to draw, while my right hand went to my hip to lift my jacket and draw. He immediately reversed direction, turned the corner I'd just made and beat a rapid retreat.

I won't swear he was about to mug me, and I don't know for sure what was going to be in his hand as it came out of that pocket, but I was clearly assessing the possibilities. He clearly recognized I was fixing to shoot him.

The fact that I'd just gotten cash at an ATM and was too distracted to check to see if I'd been followed figured heavily in my thinking. It also struck me as a total SA failure on my part. I could have avoided the whole situation with a little more care and observation after getting the cash. Generally speaking if the potential victim makes eye contact with potential assailant at a distance, and telegraphs an awareness of the situation, the assailant will just look for an easier target.

It's also an example where a gun was "used" in self defense and probably prevented a crime, but where it was never reported to the police, since no crime was ultimately completed.

 

[Wise_A]

I don't carry a reload: if I can't solve a sd problem with what's in the gun, more ammo isn't going to help. I don't entertain zombie fantasies.

It's not about having more ammunition. It's about having a backup magazine.

 

[forrestinmathews]

You can fill a pocket full of speedloaders and nobody will notice. A J-Frame just doesn't seem like the ideal combat weapon if you're going to do that. There is the convenience factor, but that's about it. I have great ability with the J-Frame, but I really have to be flawless in accuracy and I really have to nail those reloads to stay up there with a subcompact semi auto.

All that said, M&P 360 with a bobbed hammer, XS sight, Crimson Trace LG-105 low profile laser grips in a Blade Tech Looper pocket holster. 2 or more Safariland Comp 1 speedloaders in the left pocket. The gun is worn smooth in a lot of places and there's finish missing if that tells you anything. It plays a helluva lot of second fiddle.

 

[digiroc]

I carry what I can ...

... I don't carry a reload: if I can't solve a sd problem with what's in the gun, more ammo isn't going to help. I don't entertain zombie fantasies.

Unless you plan on missing a lot, I can't imagine a real life sd situation that would call for more ammo than what's in the gun.

In today's environment evil doers often travel in packs, "zombie fantasies" can become all too real.

BB57 makes some great points about the statistical probabilities of needing more than five rounds being very low, but I wouldn't want to be the outlier and become a statistic myself.

For one thing doing a revolver reload of any kind seems like a good way to get shot in an extended gunfight. My reload of choice in of the NY type, drop my primary weapon and draw my back-up.

My J frames are easy to carry and conceal, but hard to shoot well, especially in sustained fire. And the 5 shot capability, while statistically sufficient for 99% of the time there is that 1% to consider.

I train to use the "Mozambique Drill" which is two to center mass, and one to the head. With a 5 shot capacity that leaves me one short if there are two attackers. I have addressed that with moving to a six shooter:

The 547 shoots 9mm's so my spare clip for my backup gun could be used for a reload, but speed clips are so easy to carry that I'll toss at least one in my weak side front pocket.

My back-up gun is usually my 3914DAO for the same revolver like operation. Point and pull, the same every time. A spare magazine or even two go in my back pocket:

Going heavy for when I'm going into "Injun Territory" would be replacing the 3914 with a 17+1 915 for more firepower.

digiroc

 

[sdb321]

640 Pro

This is what I carry now. But after reading this thread I make a few changes. This is the best forum with the best people bar none!!!! Here is a pic and thanks to all.

 

[DD357]

Usually 12; snub K frame. 6 in the gun and a reload.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Usually 24: 6 in the gun, plus two speedloaders and a speed strip.

 

[DevilDog72]

I carry a 19 snub and 1 speed strip and on occasional quick out and backs to the local stop-n-rob I carry my 640 nd and a speed strip. I know others have said you do not need more than what is in the gun already, according to statistics, but.... when the gun fight is over, I am not going to stand there with an empty gun waiting for the Cops to arrive.

 

[forrestinmathews]

Digiroc...just so you know...we all secretly hate you for flaunting your 547 and enjoying it so much. �� Just kidding...or are we?