It really doesn't matter what you have a lawful duty to do if you have no intention to comply.
IS ANY ONE ELSE STARTING TO THINK WE'RE BEING TROLLED?
To the OP You're dead to me, I'm out
Criticize me; Walmart shoplifting confrontation
- Thread starter Shield 9 WV
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It really doesn't matter what you have a lawful duty to do if you have no intention to comply.
IS ANY ONE ELSE STARTING TO THINK WE'RE BEING TROLLED?
To the OP You're dead to me, I'm out
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Agreed. Most LEO's qualify at the range once or twice per year. I always shot more frequently when I was on the job but that was either because I was working on improvement or just because I enjoy shooting. Now that I am retired I maintain membership in a very good indoor range about 2 miles from my home, and I usually shoot once per week (again, because I enjoy shooting).
A civilian concealed carry permit holder who regularly shoots 3 or 4 times per year is doing more to maintain proficiency than most active cops.
THEmodelof1989
Member
The comments you have made make you seem like you're on some weird power trip in which you need to control the actions of others.
Not only do I work law enforcement, but I've worked for CPS as an investigator as well. Laws vary by state, but the Texas family code allows you to physically discipline your child as you see fit; this includes slapping a child in the face, as long as it's being used as corrective punishment (not that I personally agree with this one way or another, but we are a nation of laws, not men)(I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY). In my state, threatening to take someone's children away you were out of line, especially as an emissary of the state. If I were her, in my state, with my knowledge, you would be an unemployed social worker; I would have dedicated unlimited resources to make sure of it. Your only duty as a social worker was to call the police, and sit on hold on the CPS hotline to report the abuse; WHICH YOU DIDNT EVEN DO. You were clearly more concerned about flexing your power than actually doing your job.
Law enforcement is much different than social work. You are not law enforcement, you would be wise to not think of your title so highly, and you'd be even wiser if you stopped going about your day metaphorically tossing rocks at every bee hive you see.
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Well Armed
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People are real sensitive when it comes to their children. I would personally never hit any of my kids in the face, and I've never really spanked them.. With that said, I would become extremely irritated to say the least if some stranger walked up and try to tell me how to discipline my children. Whether the parent is right or wrong, a person who isn't in uniform interfering with their children will usually escalate matters pretty quickly... At least it would for me.
Nope. That's well settled law. LEO's have no specific duty to protect any individual. They may have a department policy to that end, but the law and the Supreme Court are on their side if they choose not to. That's why the Parkland deputy hasn't been charged with a crime. But he has been fired . . .
You didn't, even after the first time you said something, when she told you to get bent . . .
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oldiesradio1560
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I worked at Walmart for 3 years and the Supercenters have 450-500 HD cameras so they know when shoplifting is going on. Aside from that, Is shoplifting a life or death situation? NO. Think about it. Save you own life or another life if needed. Keep your firearm holstered in any other situation.
Agreed--it's either 5-0 Time or it isn't. Engaging and threatening is just trying to boss someone around who may or may not put up with it.
From the other party's perspective in the situation described, you're not a CPS official, you're what's called "Some Dude". They will interpret you as the aggressor--"I was standing over here and Some Dude came over and threatened to..."--and either call the police on you (they would frankly be right to, in my estimation), or just skip that step and go right to beating the hell out of you.
Am I currently being paid to be where I am? If not, then I am Some Dude. I know a fair few police agencies are even shifting to that line of thinking, and I can't say I disagree.
cmichini
Member
I would not get involved at all unless my life, or that of a loved one, was in danger.
Unless you see the entire situation start and evolve, you probably don't have enough info to intervene.
When deciding to use deadly force you should be faced with the decision "Save my life or ruin it?". Because the criminal and civil liability risk is enormous and even if justified you're likely going to get put through the wringer. And not being LEO, all that liability exposure us yours alone.
Avoid, de-escalate and escape are all WAY above defend, in my threat reaction checklist.
Of course your mileage may vary.
Unless you see the entire situation start and evolve, you probably don't have enough info to intervene.
When deciding to use deadly force you should be faced with the decision "Save my life or ruin it?". Because the criminal and civil liability risk is enormous and even if justified you're likely going to get put through the wringer. And not being LEO, all that liability exposure us yours alone.
Avoid, de-escalate and escape are all WAY above defend, in my threat reaction checklist.
Of course your mileage may vary.
Cops have sworn an oath. Many interpret that as “duty” including some notable experts I’ve trained with. Therefore cops are treated differently in court than the average citizen shooter. That was my point. Not disagreeing with the courts. Semantically I could have said cops have a responsibility to act, citizens don’t. I guess if they do a crappy job at their responsibilities they should be fired but maybe not prosecuted.
wingriderz
Member
Can you really name a safer place to shop ??
misswired
Absent Comrade
This is what I'm thinking; Walmart has plenty of experience and resources to handle thieves.
Add jogging to your training, then you can escape scary Walmart incidents twice as fast.
OP
Shield 9 WV
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A troll doesn't share his life experiences, and a troll doesn't thoughtfully explain his actions. I respect your right to bow out. I appreciate the feedback and I wish you well.
I don't blame you guys for your reaction to my confronting a parent physically abusing a child. In my former positions and a CPS worker and an in-home mental health therapist I came into contact daily contact with child abusers and my reaction is one of a professional in that field, not as a regular person who probably doesn't even know anybody like that. It's shocking how some parents physical, mentally and sexually abuse their children. Then there is neglect. I hope none of you ever have to deal with people like that. Most of us react according to our experiences.
I hope you never have to experience the knowledge of how much abuse and neglect many children have to endure. Trust me, I have stories.
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Back to the subject at hand: I am happy to have the advice and experience of those with military and LEO background, and those of you with CCW experience that I don't have.
I feel like I need to keep revisiting my story because it is NOT about shoplifting, and it is is NOT about me wanting to intervene, and it is NOT about my CCW.
My story had to do with my discomfort in how I reacted in a Walmart situation which involved some arguing between a Walmart manager and a shopper. Being a responsible CCW carrier I wanted professional level analysis of what I was feeling, and how I could react better the next time.
I feel I've gotten excellent feedback and advice and I thank you all for that.
-Dave
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Ziggy2525
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Since you went into so much depth, my question is was the woman actually physically abusing the child or was she just disciplining the child in a legal way you didn't agree with?
If the woman was actually physically abusing the child and you didn't do anything, wouldn't you be complicit in the abuse? Just wondering.
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OP
Shield 9 WV
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You are 100% right Muss.
My assessment at the time was to stop the mother abusing her child. I did what I did purposefully to protect that child in the moment.
She left the store immediately after stopping hitting her child. I did not know who this woman was and she left immediately. At that point the only thing I could have done was call 911 and follow her out to the parking lot. I choose to let it go because I know what it takes to get LE and CPS involved. It takes time and effort. See below.
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Educational part of the show: In my state of West Virginia we have a State Wide Abuse and Neglect Hotline (we simply call it the Hotline). The Hotline is NOT CPS, it is a contracted service and it is the designated phone number to call when reporting suspected abuse and neglect. LE and CPS both use this number.
When you call the line, they ask literally about 50 questions and it can take a hour to report a problem, no exaggeration. They want the Abusers first name, last name, address, aliases, DOB, address, phone number, names of all kids in the household, their DOB, location of the incident, details of the incident. It goes on forever when all you want to do is alert CPS.
I reported one incident and it took about 4 hours to get it resolved. It was resolved when I (I was the therapist) went into a home at 3:00am and removed an infant from the home who was in danger from druggies. The grandmother (custodian) had just died and the druggy mother and some other people moved in immediately, displacing her husband and took the grandmother's pain pills.
I had to coordinate with CPS as only a CPS worker could legally take the child and we needed law enforcement, two sheriff deputies in this case. I was requested by both CPS and LE because the home was in the country and it was pitch black. I knew the area and the exact home.
The deputies were total pros and took control of the scene. They knocked on the door, then made immediate entry and got the ten or so people inside under control. Then the CPS worker went in to took the infant and she gave him to me to get to the car. She gathered his clothes, cases and cases of Infamil and took everything out.
That child was in danger of death from those people and had I not intervened with an immediate call to the hotline and had the child removed. There was a strong suspicion they had caused the death of the grandmother to get her meds.
In the incident I described I only knew a woman was hitting her child in the face. That is clearly illegal (not even close) and more, that child needed to be protected right there and then. They were caring and totally professional. We could not have removed that child without them.
The point of my story about the Hotline is to illustrate I was not making an idle threat about calling in law enforcement but I was aware how long the process takes.
I also know had I not intervened with the woman that day the abuse would not have stopped and she would have gotten the wrong idea that others saw her hitting her child and were OK with it. After all, nobody said anything, right?
A call to either 911 or the Hotline would not have stopped this woman from leaving the store. I'm the CPS guy, not the police. I'm not physically detaining anyone.
I know many of you are thinking "Dave you probably escalated the situation and the child paid the price after you weren't around."
That is possible but my experience is these abusive parents are bullies and are able to get their act together when they are on notice that people are watching, and that people care enough to say something.
Those people are CPS, law enforcement, the courts, and regular folks who have the courage to say something to protect a child.
Just my experience, yours might be different. -Dave
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OP
Shield 9 WV
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Hi Ziggy, thanks for the question. It's a good one.
Remember this is my professional opinion, not a personal one, and it is not subject to my interpretation. It is based on law and validated by the courts. Hitting a child in the face is child abuse according to WV law.
For instance if the child went to school with bruises in the face, the teacher would have the same duty-to-report to CPS. If there is suspicion of child abuse, the teacher must either report or cause the report to be sent to CPS. If the teacher discusses the bruised face with her principal and he reports it to the Hotline, she is off the hook and the legal requirement has been met.
If a parent is known to be hitting their children like this a court will remove them from the home and put them into temporary foster care.
The parent then has 3 months (up to six months) to get counseling and convince the counselor and CPS worker (who represents the state and the child) that the parent has successfully passed parenting classes and under supervision can now provide a safe environment for the child.
If the parent is non-compliant then parental rights are terminated. That means the parent has no right to see the child, make any decisions about their care. The court issues a non-contact order which makes the parent a stranger to their biological child except with less rights.
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In the case I said I intervened in, I strongly suspect she boogied so fast was because that was not her first contact with Children's Services, and she knew what the consequences might be.
You don't hit you child in front of a CPS worker.
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fredj338
Member
Agree, but I don't think they are ready for a gunfight either. Shooting well is a perishable skill set. 4-5x a year is just maintaining competence so you do not shoot your foot or hand during range visits. Carrying a gun imo is a commitment. So best to get some training & then practice enough to be able to use that training. The higher the skill level the less live fire you will need to not suck.
fredj338
Member
Which really isn't enough if everyone would be honest. Throw in switching guns out, duty to bug or diff ccw, you really need more than 1/4 quals or practice, which is what most LEO use their quals as.
You had the same duty to report......and you didn't.
Why not? That lady did and you did nothing
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