A Case against manual safetys?

[fredj338]

We dont know how the 1911 was setup. I have carred & trained with a 1911 for decades. I am 100% with the safety at high speed for 10s of 1000s of rrss in Training, practice & competition. I do NOT run ambi safeties or oversize controls on any pistol I may have to fight with. So It is possible his 1911 was running extended &/or ambi safety which can be problematic.

 

[robertrwalsh]

In the real world, life is a crapshoot, you pays your money and you takes your chances. Both points of view have reasonable arguments for and against. Go with what seems good for you.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I still remember my Army training on the M1911A-1 (1969). One of the features demonstrated to us was the "disconnector safety", which prevented the pistol from firing unless the slide was fully forward and "in battery" condition. This was demonstrated by placing the palm of the hand on the muzzle of the pistol and pushing backward against the hand holding the pistol, and the disconnector would prevent discharge (assuming the pistol was in good and serviceable condition, etc).

So, if you are carrying a 1911-style pistol you should never jam it into an opponent's body, thus disengaging the disconnector and disabling the pistol, because you are then unable to fire the pistol. Thumb safety means nothing in this instance. Grip safety is meaningless in this instance.

Try this all you want to, but I strongly recommend that you make completely sure that your 1911-style pistol is completely unloaded before you give it this test.

A fine pistol for close combat, proven by over 100 years of service in every condition on the face of this planet. Obviously, "close combat" does not necessarily include "in contact".

I still like the 1911 pistols. I still like a positive thumb safety. I still like a positive grip safety. I will try my best to avoid activating the disconnector safety device if I can.

Semi-auto pistols without a positive manual safety cause me some concerns, especially after hanging around half-trained soldiers for several years and then working with poorly trained cops for a couple of decades. For that matter, revolvers without positive hammer-block devices also scare me a little bit (I still carry my single-action Colts with hammer down over an empty chamber, and I never rely on the "first click" safety position or half-cock position when I carry those old classics).

Training and familiarization, repeated frequently until the operating characteristics of your equipment are hard-wired into your brain. That works for me. Maybe it will work for you.

By the way, accidental (negligent) discharges were never much of a problem with modern DA revolvers in police service, but the transition to striker-fired semi-autos without manual safeties brought about a lot of changes in our lives!

Put up your money and take your chances. No manual safety could mean no safety at all.

 

[Protected One]

I'm in the 'meh' camp on the safety. Life's not perfect. It'll always be something.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I have a couple other issues with the encounter in the video. First, was the attack on the woman actually a deadly force attack that warranted a deadly force response? Second, in the face-to-face interview on the Extra channel, the good guy/shooter said he hesitated shooting because he wasn't sure if he'd go to jail or not. His hesitation seems to result in the entangled encounter. Seems like the time to decide jail or not was before he drew the pistol.

Considering that the PROSECUTOR shook his hand and thanked him for what he did, and that no charges were filled and his gun returned in 13 days ...I would say that SOMEONE felt that deadly force was justified.

Frankly, I'm amazed anyone would think that it wasn't.

 

[Protected One]

We dont know how the 1911 was setup. I have carred & trained with a 1911 for decades. I am 100% with the safety at high speed for 10s of 1000s of rrss i. Training, practice & competition. I do NOT run ambi safeties or oversize controls on any pistol I may have to fight with. So It is possible his 1911 was running extended &/or ambi safety which can be problematic.

This occurred to me as well, and I also don't run oversized or ambi safeties on my 1911 OR Browning High Power.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Considering that the PROSECUTOR shook his hand and thanked him for what he did, and that no charges were filled and his gun returned in 13 days ...I would say that SOMEONE felt that deadly force was justified.

Frankly, I'm amazed anyone would think that it wasn't.

Seems like it was only a few months ago someone here posted the ASP video from a bar in Colorado where three guys had a guy on the ground and were kicking him in the head with boots. The majority of posters here didn't think it warranted a deadly force third party response. "Simple assault." "Not my circus, not my clowns." "Call the cops and be a good witness." Somehow this was a deadly force assualt and the one in Colorado wasn't??

IMO, the prosecutor gave this guy a pass.

 

[Jack Flash]

Meh, you can use anecdotal evidence to make cases for or against anything. ...

Yes, agreed. Often we can really overthink any situation. The slide coming out of battery in a struggle has been mentioned.

I suppose it is possible that in a wild fight for control of a revolver, the cylinder latch could be actuated making the cylinder swing out!

Anything can happen, especially if you're not really sure what you want to do till the guy is on top of you.

 

[jim lock]

If you can't fogure it out on your own-------Buy a revolver.
Jim

 

[Farmer17]

Colonel Charles Askins was once working the Border Patrol and apprehending a perp at gunpoint when the guy grabbed the cylinder of his revolver and it wouldn't fire. As the perp was trying to get the gun away from him Askins fell backward on the ground then kicked the guy with both feet in the stomach that made him let go. There are many things that can go wrong no matter what type of gun you have.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Yes, agreed. Often we can really overthink any situation. The slide coming out of battery in a struggle has been mentioned.

I suppose it is possible that in a wild fight for control of a revolver, the cylinder latch could be actuated making the cylinder swing out!

Anything can happen, especially if you're not really sure what you want to do till the guy is on top of you.

In a situation involving a revolver it is fairly easy to grab the revolver around the frame, holding the cylinder to keep it from rotating and preventing movement of the hammer. This was actually taught to us in defensive tactics classes when I was a young cop.

 

[Marshal Tom]

I think this good samaritan was lucky that he wasn't charged in this case. Had the man been armed with something during the attack he would have been on much firmer ground.

 

[delcrossv]

If one trains with a SA, I don't see where it would be an issue. I'm personally uncomfortable with "cocked and locked" so I carry DA/SA semi autos or revolvers.

IMHO, It all really boils down to training with the piece you carry. A lot.

 

[sarg1c]

Meh, you can use anecdotal evidence to make cases for or against anything.

If I wanted to, I could dig up instances right now in which the lack of a manual safety was or otherwise could have been a liability.

Personally, I like manual safeties on my firearms, it's just my preference, and no amount of anecdotal evidence is going to convince me that it's a bad idea.

As for the man stating that he'll be carrying a Glock from now on, that really doesn't mean much considering that most folks chose to replace their carry gun in the aftermath of a self-defense shooting. It's a natural response to analyze a incident afterwards, and most folks find room for improvement, regardless of whether or not there was any tangible difference to have been made.

I agree, I have carried with safety, without safety. Full load, empty cylinder. even looked at the SCCY without safe, my S/W 637 revolver, Ruger LCP, and the LC380. As someone said earlier, Practice, Practice, Practice.... Colts locked and loaded .a lot of times I carry empty chambers but never locked with a Key... I guess one should carry the same, the same way every time but practice....I do carry with the same style holster, but never in a pants pocket... Just me...

 

[RedRiver]

It's been said already. Training, training, training.

 

[fredj338]

I agree, I have carried with safety, without safety. Full load, empty cylinder. even looked at the SCCY without safe, my S/W 637 revolver, Ruger LCP, and the LC380. As someone said earlier, Practice, Practice, Practice.... Colts locked and loaded .a lot of times I carry empty chambers but never locked with a Key... I guess one should carry the same, the same way every time but practice....I do carry with the same style holster, but never in a pants pocket... Just me...

I wouldnt even own a handgun with a key lock. Empty chamber imo, not ready to fight.

 

[peterGun]

It's not a gun thing or a training thing it's a location thing, avoid quickie-marts.

Walking cold into a man/woman confrontation is got to be the ultimate loser hand.

you may think you're protecting a damsel in distress when actually you're threatening her baby daddy and interfering with their forplay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Protected One]

Seems like it was only a few months ago someone here posted the ASP video from a bar in Colorado where three guys had a guy on the ground and were kicking him in the head with boots. The majority of posters here didn't think it warranted a deadly force third party response. "Simple assault." "Not my circus, not my clowns." "Call the cops and be a good witness." Somehow this was a deadly force assualt and the one in Colorado wasn't??

IMO, the prosecutor gave this guy a pass.

What the Colorado case was or was not has no bearing on THIS incident. Different situations, and most importantly - different prosecutors.

 

[Wise_A]

Lots of good stuff in this thread.

My two cents: never bring fists to a gunfight. You should also never bring a gun to a fistfight. Starting out in spitting distance is a great way to get murdered with your own carry piece.

That has a lot to do with proper training much like carrying in condition 1 and not with an empty chamber. Don't even get me started on that one. If you have been trained with a 1911 you are taught to ride the safety with your thumb after you disengage it and keep your thumb on it until the safely is put back on. I have carried many different semi autos over that years but carried a 1911 exclusively for about 25 yrs as a LE and never had an issue with this. Train, train, train.

This. Doesn't matter what you carry--presuming you color inside the lines--but it does matter that you carry and use it correctly. Maybe this guy would be better off with a Glock. That's fine.

It's not a gun thing or a training thing it's a location thing, avoid quickie-marts.

Walking cold into a man/woman confrontation is got to be the ultimate loser hand.

you may think you're protecting a damsel in distress when actually you're threatening her baby daddy and interfering with their forplay.

Correct. A year or two ago I counseled a prospective CCWer on exactly that, with the same advice.

Considering that the PROSECUTOR shook his hand and thanked him for what he did, and that no charges were filled and his gun returned in 13 days ...I would say that SOMEONE felt that deadly force was justified.

Frankly, I'm amazed anyone would think that it wasn't.

And if circumstances, outcomes, or political winds were different, where would the good prosecutor be?

Yes--I think this was a dumb fight to get involved in.

 

[Dogbone44Spl]

Self defense shootings are not pretty or by the book. I was involved in one around '80 or so hope it never happens again.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

On a somewhat different note.....yes, there are some excellent comments here. If you train train train then yes, use your cocked and locked single action pistol if you are super comfortable with it. I don't like them. I train with revolvers and traditional double action pistols, I even have one striker fired self defense pistol that for me handles like a TDA pistol. If it's a S&W 3rd Gen then it is decocked and has a round in the chamber always but the decocker is released so it is ready to fight. Makes revolvers and pistols behave the same. That's my method. Now, for the something different....

HOW OLD ARE YOU???!!! How large are you? How hand to hand combat trained are you? Seriously. These are important questions. Are you still young/nimble/strong enough to manhandle a large opponent?

If you watched that video see if you agree with me here.

Our hero is WAY TOO CLOSE to our bad guy and our hero is obviously threatening our bad guy. "STOP OR I'LL SHOOT!" Are you kidding me? What did he think this large man in an obvious rage was going to do under that threat?

Let me remind you all of the most famous fictional situation that this resembles:

(c) Youtube 2012

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSZ_HQmZgQ[/ame]

If you pull that smokewagon USE IT. Otherwise step outside and call 911.

If you don't have the size and strength to find off a physical attack you don't get close to an assailant and if you draw your gun you don't play "FREEZE". Our hero was doggone lucky.

The commentator is all wrong about our hero - his hand to hand fighting, his pistol positioning, none of that should have happened. Good technique? Maybe. But still all wrong because he started off all wrong.

This is a better summary I suppose:

Lots of good stuff in this thread.

My two cents: never bring fists to a gunfight. You should also never bring a gun to a fistfight. Starting out in spitting distance is a great way to get murdered with your own carry piece.