Need to repair damaged rear sight on S&W Model 17-5

[mikemyers]

.........A spanner wrench for for the windage nut can be quickly and easily made by filling a small flat head screwdriver. Ordering one takes too long and the shipping likely is as much as the tool.

The numbers that identify different rear blades are the height of the blade......

Thanks for both pieces of information - I'll go make a tool now, if I can find an old screwdriver to file. I'll also measure my sight blade, to see what size it matches.

Thanks!!! I was just getting ready to place an order; no need now.

 

[Indynick]

I purchased a set of screwdriver tips from Harbor Freight, and it had some of the Spanner bits.

 

[k22fan]

To change rear sight blades we turn the windage screw until the screw itself breaks separating the end with the nut still staked on it. The screw has a groove to weaken it at the correct spot. The last time I swapped rear blades S&W was selling the blade, screw and nut for about $13. If my memory is good the kits also included a new detent plunger and its spring but even if my memory is good that might have changed. Brownell's shipping charges made it less expensive to order the kits direct from S&W.

 

[mikemyers]

I'll call them tomorrow - went to the website and can't find anything about old parts or support. I wonder if they will even know what I'll need.....

Windage screw - since if mine turns, the nut turns, that means it's not yet broken. Blades - will measure mine. If I can get the whole kit, great. Is it better to buy from S&W, or Numrich?


It's a pretty gun. I don't get excited about the new guns, but this one feels, well, special!

 

[gr7070]

While I'm asking, how useful is the "white outline" on the back of the sight blade? It looks nice, but unless I'm standing in bright sunlight, I don't notice it, not to mention it's blurry because I'm focused on the front sight. Is it a "gimmick", or is it actually useful?

It's not at all useful; in fact, I'd call it detrimental. Especially with regard to action shooting, you want to focus on the front sight by and large. The white outline is, at best, a distraction.

Definitely a gimmick.

I replace mine without it or put the blade on backwards.

 

[mikemyers]

It's not at all useful; in fact, I'd call it detrimental. Especially with regard to action shooting, you want to focus on the front sight by and large. The white outline is, at best, a distraction.

Definitely a gimmick.

I replace mine without it or put the blade on backwards.

Interesting to read what you wrote - on my Model 28 Highway Patrolman, many years ago, I found the white lines annoying as all I wanted to focus on was the front sight. I fixed that with a black magic marker, no more distraction. I like your way better. The. only things I want to see is equal gaps on either side of front sight (easier to achieve) and keeping the tops of all three areas level (more difficult for me. I'm trying my hardest to "move" that front post to where I want it to be - it's the only thing I try to concentrate on, and my trigger finger is supposed to be on autopilot, where it is constantly increasing pressure until the gun fires, and hopefully I've got the front sight post where it belongs).


Back to the 22, I've re-assembled everything, with the rear sight blade in the middle, and found a way to at least temporarily make it level. I've got a new gun rest that is supposed to allow me to be very accurate and precise, and will shoot the gun as-is, and see how far off the hole is, and how tight a group I'm getting.


On a totally different subject, the Model 17 was available in standard trim, or with a "target hammer", "target sight", and "target trigger". The "target trigger" on my Model 14 is almost half an inch wide, with serrations. My Model 17 has a more normal trigger, about half that wide, and no serrations. In discussions while buying the gun, I was under the impression it had the target options - maybe there was a mis-understanding. My question, are both models of the gun equally accurate/precise, or did the target model get any extra attention? Or in other words, is the difference just "cosmetics", or is the gun itself less of a performer if it did not come with the target option?


The person I bought it from had no idea anything was wrong, and the photos he sent me show the rear sight all the way to the right. We discussed this, and he used the gun just the way he got it (used, not new). He had no idea anything was damaged. He didn't shoot it as well as he hoped he could have, but he never got involved in figuring it out, like I've done. He shoots with his "opposite" eye, and maybe that has an effect on where the sight blade has to be. When he saw my photos, and measurements, he now understands the issue. If I had used the new name of the FFL, which does not include the word "pawn", he was planning on shipping the gun to me before I ever paid for it. In his mind, the gun was absolutely perfect. He agreed to cover the cost of having a gunsmith correct the problem, but my preference is to just buy the parts and do it myself, which will take much less time, and should have the same end result. ........if we went through with the first plan, and I examined the gun before paying for the gun, and I figured all this out, the smarter choice for me would have been to return it - but in every other way it seem/feels like a brand new gun. Oh well, that's now "water under the bridge". I can still buy another one if I want, and sell this one after it's fixed, but I don't plan to do that. I expect that I'll keep this one "forever".

I'm going ahead to make it into the gun I hoped it would be. I don't see how the "target" options, or lack of them, will make any difference in the performance of the gun. Is that correct, that they're more "cosmetic" than "functional"?

 

[bigggbbruce]

Replacing the slide will/maybe clean up some of the issues (canting). Midway usually has the slide assembly..at the moment they only show the .126.. measure what you have and see just what you need.

Smith & Wesson Rear Sight Blade Kit K L N-Frame .126 White Outline

 

[mikemyers]

Good idea; I found it difficult to measure accurately with everything still on the gun, but when I called S&W they confirmed it is 0.146" - which seems to match what I can measure.

I ordered the new part, along with the special tool for holding the nut, from Brownell's. In about ten days or so, I should be all set.

I think it was you who suggested earlier that I tighten the screw into my existing nut, then stake the nut. Without the special tool, or something I can make, this would be difficult. I fudged, and got the nut tightened as much as possible, then went to the range today. Unlike last time, I found I could adjust the sights, got the gun sighted in, and found it shoots very well even with these messed up parts.

The photo is the best I could do, off-hand, at 25 yards on a B-8 target...

 

[bigggbbruce]

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction...

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks.... I ordered the complete assembly, but before I replace the old one, I want to try to tighten the nut as described above, then back it out. I'd like to know if the rear sight "cant" still changes as I turn the adjusting screw.

Took it apart and cleaned it this morning - everything was cleaner than I expected, except the cylinder - took forever to clean that out (only using patches).


Something I'm puzzled about - another fellow came to the range yesterday with a 2019 S&W Model 17. With the exception of the grips, and the stupid locking hole, it looked pretty nice, and the stainless steel made it look more modern. I fired ten rounds with it, and while my grouping right/left was the same as with my gun it was as if I had no control over the elevation - the holes were strung out as if I was breathing while firing, which I wasn't. In my opinion, this was due to the tiny grips on the gun. They weren't stock, but they were the stock size (pun intended). The huge Nill grips on my gun allow me to hold the gun rock steady, more so than with many of my other guns. Do most people like the "toy grips" that come on the new guns?


Thinking about it, with the exception of the rear sight, the gun was every bit as nice as the seller described, and looked/felt like a brand new gun. I feel sorry for him, as he had no idea the rear sight was so messed up. The photos I sent him showed everything.... but the guy he bought it from should have told him about the sight. He told he he didn't shoot very well with the gun, and now we both know why. I also told him if he wanted it back, we could un-do the sale. Knowing why he couldn't shoot it well, I thought that was the right thing to do, but by then, I very much wanted to keep it.

 

[BC38]

If I understood the first post correctly, the rear sight blade tilts OR "rocks" - left to right - (i.e. changes cant) as you turn the windage screw? If so then it seems to me that the shaft of the windage screw must be bent - and the kink is probably not in the middle, but off center.

FWIW I had to change the sight blade on my 28-2 when I first got it. I turned the windage screw counterclockwise while holding the "nut" on the other side, and the end of the screw never did "break off" because the nut wasn't that firmly staked on. Once the nut was off I just kept rotating the windage screw counterclockwise WITHOUT letting it back out of the sight body. That way I never had to deal with the detent plunger and spring trying to launch themselves into orbit. Once the blade was pushed all the way out of its slot in the sight body by the adjustment screw, I just reversed the process and let the screw "pull" the new sight blade back into the slot in the sight body and re-used the nut. I then re-staked the nut to the screw by slightly "mushrooming" the tip of the screw with a punch.

It was actually pretty easy. However, if your windage screw has a bent shaft, you're going to have to replace the screw or else replace the whole sight assembly.

 

[bigggbbruce]

If I understood the first post correctly, the rear sight blade tilts OR "rocks" - left to right - (i.e. changes cant) as you turn the windage screw?

In the video replacing the slide.. you can clearly see the slide changing cant as it moves... The OP's slide is normal in my opinion, and the worn areas can be touched up with Black Oxide( I have some but the OP prob doesn't) so replacing the slide will LOOK better.

The idea of staking the nut is to set the clearance of the inner flats on the nut and screw to the sight body. As little that still allows the screw to turn freely will keep windage on target better. A good stake keeps them from loosening up.

 

[mikemyers]

'BC38' - Looking at the gun from behind, the left end of the sight blade moves up and down as I turn the windage screw. Yes, I think the shaft is bent. I think I will do as you described, removing the old blade, but if the screw is bent, I don't want to re-use it??

I guess I could always test it, screw on the new blade, and see if it moves up/down by turning the screw. If so, I can even re -use the old nut, and stake it properly.

 

[mikemyers]

'bigggbbruce' - Since the new blade is on the way, I might as well use it. You're right, not only do I not have any "Black Oxide", I have no idea what it is.

Yes, in the video, the blade is moving up/down.... so maybe my blade is OK? If I had the tool to hold the nut, I could even try tightening it as per the directions, and see if that fixes things?

 

[BC38]

In the video replacing the slide.. you can clearly see the slide changing cant as it moves... The OP's slide is normal in my opinion, and the worn areas can be touched up with Black Oxide( I have some but the OP prob doesn't) so replacing the slide will LOOK better.

The idea of staking the nut is to set the clearance of the inner flats on the nut and screw to the sight body. As little that still allows the screw to turn freely will keep windage on target better. A good stake keeps them from loosening up.

I didn't watch the video, but I know mine didn't wobble or move up and down when I used the screw to push it all the way out, or when I used the screw to pull the new one into the slot.

When you think about it, as long as the nut is supporting the other end of the screw, the only way the blade can rock back & forth or move up and down as you rotate the screw is if the shaft of the screw is bent. What's more, if the sight blade was damaged by the weight of the gun being dropped on it, then that force was also applied to the shaft of the screw, and to me it would be more surprising if that impact force DIDN'T bend the shaft of the screw. I guess I got lucky that mine wasn't bent - though I don't know if it was damaged by being dropped or not - it was broken when I bought the gun.

I have to assume the one in the video was bent as well.

 

[mikemyers]

Let's assume the shaft is bent, which explains what is going on.

How do I break the head off? I turn the screwdriver counter-clockwise on the screw head, and everything gets very tight - do I just "force it" until the shaft breaks? Feels like it's taking a lot of pressure - I need to use a larger screwdriver so I get a grip on it.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Counter clockwise.. slide will go all the way to left. Starts binding.. that's when the screw will break.

Don't loose plunger and spring... refer to video to complete..

 

[mikemyers]

The head wouldn't break off. So, since these parts are scrap anyway, I used a larger machinist's screwdriver, allowing the plunger to fall onto my work surface. The spring came out with the aide of a dental tool. Then, with pliers to hold the blade, I got the screw out - was very hard to turn. So all the parts are now in a small plastic baggie, awaiting the new replacement parts. I'll be gone for a week, so this will all continue when I return.

I'm 95% sure the screw is bent - I thought the blade was also bent, but that's probably just from the screw.

Between what you guys said, and the video, I had a rough idea of what to do - and thanks for the warning earlier about losing the plunger and spring!

 

[bigggbbruce]

I didn't watch the video, but I know mine didn't wobble or move up and down when I used the screw to push it all the way out, or when I used the screw to pull the new one into the slot.

At this time I only have one adj sight S&W.. When I rotate the windage screw, the movement of the gun does not allow me to see that small movement. But run the slide to where I can pinch and move it up and down. It does.. Put it in a vise and video the operation, I'll BET.. it moves.

 

[BC38]

Counter clockwise.. slide will go all the way to left. Starts binding.. that's when the screw will break.

Don't loose plunger and spring... refer to video to complete..

Yup, it will either break, or the nut will come off.

Yours did what mine did - the nut screwed all the way off - which means it wasn't staked on all that hard. Not a bad thing, it doesn't need to be staked on really really hard. Keep that in mind when putting it back together

Now you'll have some spare parts if you ever need them!