Need to repair damaged rear sight on S&W Model 17-5

[mikemyers]

I have a problem with a S&W Model 17-5 I am buying from another member of the Buillseye Forum. Serial number is AW VT816. The gun arrived at my FFL yesterday, and appeared to be in excellent condition. Both double action and single action were smooth and buttery, as nice as any gun I have yet used. So I headed to my shooting range, near the FFL.

When I got to the range, someone pointed out to me that the rear sight blade was all the way to the right. I had already noticed that the top of the rear sight blade was "canted" with the left edge too low. We tried to sight the gun in at 25 yards, which was impossible. We would turn the adjuster a few clicks and the hole in the target would move as expected, but one or two clicks more would send the hole several inches away. The following will be a summary of what I found out last night and this morning while examining the rear sight.


The left edge of the rear sight blade moves up and down as the windage screw is adjusted.

When the left edge of the sight blade is down, it is very noticeable. I measured the difference in height from the sight blade support to the top of the sight blade…. Right side = 0.136", left side = 0.114, so the difference in height was 0.022". It can be worse, depending on where I turn the adjusting screw.

On the rear left side of the sight blade, down at the bottom, there is a shiny spot that might have been caused by it "scraping" against the sight body, if it was being forced down, perhaps from something hitting it. The top right corner of the rear sight is almost a "square corner", but the top left corner looks slightly flattened out, again making me think something hit it.

Pushing on either end of the rear sight blade causes it to move sideways, without needing to turn the adjusting screw.



I will attach a close-up photo taken from the rear of the gun, showing the "cant". I also took a photo of the screw that holds the sight onto the gun. At some point in time, someone must have removed the sight assembly, without using the proper screwdriver.


What is the best way to get this fixed? Should I take the whole gun to a gunsmith? Should I remove the rear sight completely? Are the original parts available online?

 

[steelslaver]

It looks tome like it got dropped or something and hit on the sight body which cause the the attachment screw and the hole it passes though to be damaged. Then someone probably messed up the slot. You can find the correct sight body.But, first I would remove the sight. Clean every thing up. Where the area beside the screw head is mucked up I would lay the sight on a heavy piece of steel. Then a sharp chisel o slightly dull knife to try to fix the messed up slot by tap it with a hammer to move the displaced metal back in place. The reinstall the sight with a new screw and a new rear blade. The new blade should come with a new screw to move it back and forth. The end gets staked so the nut won't unscrew. Don't stake it until your sure the body is OK

 

[AJ]

Why not just buy a whole new rear sight from Numrich (Gun Parts Corp.)
Smith & Wesson 17-5 Revolver Parts, Schematics | Gun Parts Corp.

 

[mikemyers]

Why not just buy a whole new rear sight from Numrich (Gun Parts Corp.)
Smith & Wesson 17-5 Revolver Parts, Schematics | Gun Parts Corp.

Excellent idea, except that they are out of stock.
Part key = 10-18, Rear Sight Assembly, White Outline (.146) Product #300520

When they have different numbers, such as (.136) and (.146), what are those numbers referring to?

I assume I need to buy all the parts from #10 up to #19, once I figure out which are the right ones for my gun?

 

[mikemyers]

It looks tome like it got dropped or something and hit on the sight body which cause the the attachment screw and the hole it passes though to be damaged. Then someone probably messed up the slot. You can find the correct sight body.But, first I would remove the sight. Clean every thing up. Where the area beside the screw head is mucked up I would lay the sight on a heavy piece of steel. Then a sharp chisel o slightly dull knife to try to fix the messed up slot by tap it with a hammer to move the displaced metal back in place. The reinstall the sight with a new screw and a new rear blade. The new blade should come with a new screw to move it back and forth. The end gets staked so the nut won't unscrew. Don't stake it until your sure the body is OK

Confused, which area are you referring to by the area beside the screw head? This is the screw that holds the sight onto the gun?

Removing it sounds like a good start. Identifying which are the correct replacement parts sounds rather difficult for me, not knowing yet which is which. Regardless of anything else, I guess I should start by removing it from the gun. Thanks. Will ask more questions later.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I see the nut is about to fall off.. tighten nut ,then back off 1/8 turn, restake screw.

 

[bigggbbruce]

It looks tome like it got dropped or something and hit on the sight body which cause the the attachment screw and the hole it passes though to be damaged. Then someone probably messed up the slot. You can find the correct sight body.But, first I would remove the sight. Clean every thing up. Where the area beside the screw head is mucked up I would lay the sight on a heavy piece of steel. Then a sharp chisel o slightly dull knife to try to fix the messed up slot by tap it with a hammer to move the displaced metal back in place. The reinstall the sight with a new screw and a new rear blade. The new blade should come with a new screw to move it back and forth. The end gets staked so the nut won't unscrew. Don't stake it until your sure the body is OK

Don't do this. The screw wasn't staked properly. the nut is loose and the slide will move back and forth. If you're not careful you'll loose the detent and spring.

 

[mikemyers]

I......first I would remove the sight. Clean every thing up. Where the area beside the screw head is mucked up I would lay the sight on a heavy piece of steel. Then a sharp chisel o slightly dull knife to try to fix the messed up slot by tap it with a hammer to move the displaced metal back in place. The reinstall the sight with a new screw and a new rear blade. The new blade should come with a new screw to move it back and forth. The end gets staked so the nut won't unscrew. Don't stake it until your sure the body is OK

The sight is now off. Is there any need to remove what I think is the "Rear Sight Elevatio Stud"? The elevation adjustment screw is above it, with the sight body in-between. Do I just leave those parts as-is? If I need to disassemble it, how does it come apart?

Also, to remove the rear sight blade, apparently I use a flat blade screwdriver at one end, and some kind of special tool to break the other end off. Where does one buy this tool?

After removing each "end", with the shaft between them, will the sight blade just lift up out of the housing? If so, I assume I can measure it, and get a new one of the proper height?

I will get new screws, to match the like-new condition of the rest of the gun.

Again, when I'm selecting the Rear Sight Slide, what is the difference between the .136 and .146 slides?


Ouch - in all my previous emails and posts, I've been referring to the rear sight blade. Now I understand it is the assembly, with a threaded cylinder at the bottom so it can be adjusted right/left.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Lower rear lowers POI. Is the nut loose allowing the slide to move back and forth. If it does move, simply setting it up correctly will do wonders.

 

[mikemyers]

Lower rear lowers POI. Is the nut loose allowing the slide to move back and forth. If it does move, simply setting it up correctly will do wonders.

If you're asking me if what I was calling the "sight blade" moves back and forth as I turn the adjustment screw, yes, it does. It also moves back and forth if I simply push on it. Assuming there are threads in there somewhere, one part or the other, or both, are stripped.

 

[mikemyers]

Don't do this. The screw wasn't staked properly. the nut is loose and the slide will move back and forth. If you're not careful you'll loose the detent and spring.

Where are the detent and spring? Which part numbers are they in the parts drawing I posted up above?

If we're talking about the adjustment screw on the right, and the "nut" that is on the left end, apparently everything is already stripped as I can move the blade right or left with just finger pressure.

If parts are going to go flying as I remove the nut from the left side, I'll do this inside a large plastic baggie so they can't get lost. If I don't take it apart, I may need to buy a replacement sight......

 

[bigggbbruce]

If you're asking me if what I was calling the "sight blade" moves back and forth as I turn the adjustment screw, yes, it does. It also moves back and forth if I simply push on it. Assuming there are threads in there somewhere, one part or the other, or both, are stripped.

The screw threads into the sight blade. The nut holds the assembly ( slide, screw, nut, detent and spring ) within' the sight base. If the nut is loose on the screw that assembly will move side to side. When assembling the nut is turned until it touches the base, then slightly back off so the screw can turn freely to adjust windage. This is where the nut is to be staked. In your picture I can plainly see the nut sticking out of the base looks a couple threads loose... they sit under flush.. this is what I see.

 

[bigggbbruce]

The detent is 11 + 12.. yes they can go flying..

I doubt the slide is stipped.. If you can screw the nut on or off NOW... it's just loose..not staked correctly..

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6au83u4A78[/ame]

 

[ken158]

If you had your location in your profile, you might some local assistance.

 

[Narragansett]

I bought a M28, and it was packaged poorly, and the rear sight got bent. I asked someone on this forum if they would fix it for me and they did. Just unscrew the whole assembly, and ask one of the gunsmiths on this site if they will fix it for you. Ask on the S&W smithing forum. Then while the sight is being repaired, you can pick up a couple screws to replace the buggered up one at S&W, Numrich, Brownells, or Midway

 

[mikemyers]

First, I'm in Miami Beach. I'll add that to my profile - thanks.

I'm expecting to replace the entire sight, as suggested earlier. Then I just slide it into place and I'm done. I wasn't planning on doing any of this work. I'll see how well I can do the things you're all suggesting.

I'm learning a lot. Thanks!!

 

[mikemyers]

I tried to respond, but my entry got lost. Will try again.

The sight is back on the gun.

I tightened the windage screw until both the sight blade was more or less in the center, and the nut is now flush against the left edge of the sight. I'd like to make it tighter, but without the tool, I haven't yet thought of a way to do that. I need to order the tool tonight.

The blade is back to being canted, but not as much as before. I will take measurements, but first I'd like to tighten the windage screw as advised up above - can't do it any more now, as the nut turns with it. Maybe I can find some small pliers.

I think my goal is still to buy the complete sight, but in the meantime I'm learning a lot more just by following the advice here. I'll attach a photo showing the nut at the far end from the adjustment screw. It's tighter - but I think I need to get things tightened completely, then back out the screw as described above.

 

[mikemyers]

.........Just unscrew the whole assembly, and ask one of the gunsmiths on this site if they will fix it for you. Ask on the S&W smithing forum. Then while the sight is being repaired, you can pick up a couple screws to replace the buggered up one at S&W, Numrich, Brownells, or Midway

If at all possible, I would rather buy whatever tools and parts are needed, and fix it myself. So far you guys are doing great.

I did find a complete rear sight that was replaced on my S&W Model 28. It actually does slide into place, but the length from front to back is different. Also, on that sight, the nut and related parts to lock into place appear to be half the size of the similar parts on the Model 17.


While I'm asking, how useful is the "white outline" on the back of the sight blade? It looks nice, but unless I'm standing in bright sunlight, I don't notice it, not to mention it's blurry because I'm focused on the front sight. Is it a "gimmick", or is it actually useful?

 

[k22fan]

I think I can still add a little help on miscellaneous points.

A spanner wrench for for the windage nut can be quickly and easily made by filling a small flat head screwdriver. Ordering one takes too long and the shipping likely is as much as the tool.

The numbers that identify different rear blades are the height of the blade. Generally taller blades are needed for longer barrels and higher velocity cartridges.

White outlines and dots show up in low light situations when there is a light source behind the shooter or if he holds his flash light behind the gun. A variety of dots, beads or lines are easier to see for some people with poor vision. However, while they are the worst in low light, traditionally target shooters used all black sights for best accuracy.

The red ramp front that S&W used to combine with a white line rear also helps in low light but is most useful for estimating how high to hold the front sight shooting at long range in good light. As an example, firing a 240-250 gr. bullet at 850-900 fps I use a 6 O'clock hold at 25 yards, a center hold and 50 yards and hold half the red ramp above the rear notch at 100 yards. A little experimentation will determine what works for you.

 

[mikemyers]

The detent is 11 + 12.. yes they can go flying..

I doubt the slide is stipped.. If you can screw the nut on or off NOW... it's just loose..not staked correctly..

YouTube

Quick question - 40 seconds into this video you posted, it says to turn the windage screw counter clockwise until it breaks. This will sound like a silly question, but what actually breaks?

If I understand all this correctly, the windage screw itself has a small hole for a spring and detent, which is what we are listening to as we "count the clicks". The other end of the windage screw goes into a round nut at the other end (which is held in place by punching the middle of the nut area). When we are told the Windage screw breaks, is this saying that it has broken free from the nut, or that something actually has broken.

My windage screw is almost certainly broken free from the nut, as I can turn the screw easily without the nut turning. I can only get it so tight though - that's where I need to get the wrench to hold the nut in place as I tighten the screw, then back it off slightly.

Lastly, Brownells has one type of special tool to hold the nut, with two "prongs", and Midway has what they call a "spanner wrench" which I guess does the same job, but looks very different. Which one should I buy? I can post photos if that would help.

 

[mikemyers]

.........A spanner wrench for for the windage nut can be quickly and easily made by filling a small flat head screwdriver. Ordering one takes too long and the shipping likely is as much as the tool.

The numbers that identify different rear blades are the height of the blade......

Thanks for both pieces of information - I'll go make a tool now, if I can find an old screwdriver to file. I'll also measure my sight blade, to see what size it matches.

Thanks!!! I was just getting ready to place an order; no need now.

 

[Indynick]

I purchased a set of screwdriver tips from Harbor Freight, and it had some of the Spanner bits.

 

[k22fan]

To change rear sight blades we turn the windage screw until the screw itself breaks separating the end with the nut still staked on it. The screw has a groove to weaken it at the correct spot. The last time I swapped rear blades S&W was selling the blade, screw and nut for about $13. If my memory is good the kits also included a new detent plunger and its spring but even if my memory is good that might have changed. Brownell's shipping charges made it less expensive to order the kits direct from S&W.

 

[mikemyers]

I'll call them tomorrow - went to the website and can't find anything about old parts or support. I wonder if they will even know what I'll need.....

Windage screw - since if mine turns, the nut turns, that means it's not yet broken. Blades - will measure mine. If I can get the whole kit, great. Is it better to buy from S&W, or Numrich?


It's a pretty gun. I don't get excited about the new guns, but this one feels, well, special!

 

[gr7070]

While I'm asking, how useful is the "white outline" on the back of the sight blade? It looks nice, but unless I'm standing in bright sunlight, I don't notice it, not to mention it's blurry because I'm focused on the front sight. Is it a "gimmick", or is it actually useful?

It's not at all useful; in fact, I'd call it detrimental. Especially with regard to action shooting, you want to focus on the front sight by and large. The white outline is, at best, a distraction.

Definitely a gimmick.

I replace mine without it or put the blade on backwards.

 

[mikemyers]

It's not at all useful; in fact, I'd call it detrimental. Especially with regard to action shooting, you want to focus on the front sight by and large. The white outline is, at best, a distraction.

Definitely a gimmick.

I replace mine without it or put the blade on backwards.

Interesting to read what you wrote - on my Model 28 Highway Patrolman, many years ago, I found the white lines annoying as all I wanted to focus on was the front sight. I fixed that with a black magic marker, no more distraction. I like your way better. The. only things I want to see is equal gaps on either side of front sight (easier to achieve) and keeping the tops of all three areas level (more difficult for me. I'm trying my hardest to "move" that front post to where I want it to be - it's the only thing I try to concentrate on, and my trigger finger is supposed to be on autopilot, where it is constantly increasing pressure until the gun fires, and hopefully I've got the front sight post where it belongs).


Back to the 22, I've re-assembled everything, with the rear sight blade in the middle, and found a way to at least temporarily make it level. I've got a new gun rest that is supposed to allow me to be very accurate and precise, and will shoot the gun as-is, and see how far off the hole is, and how tight a group I'm getting.


On a totally different subject, the Model 17 was available in standard trim, or with a "target hammer", "target sight", and "target trigger". The "target trigger" on my Model 14 is almost half an inch wide, with serrations. My Model 17 has a more normal trigger, about half that wide, and no serrations. In discussions while buying the gun, I was under the impression it had the target options - maybe there was a mis-understanding. My question, are both models of the gun equally accurate/precise, or did the target model get any extra attention? Or in other words, is the difference just "cosmetics", or is the gun itself less of a performer if it did not come with the target option?


The person I bought it from had no idea anything was wrong, and the photos he sent me show the rear sight all the way to the right. We discussed this, and he used the gun just the way he got it (used, not new). He had no idea anything was damaged. He didn't shoot it as well as he hoped he could have, but he never got involved in figuring it out, like I've done. He shoots with his "opposite" eye, and maybe that has an effect on where the sight blade has to be. When he saw my photos, and measurements, he now understands the issue. If I had used the new name of the FFL, which does not include the word "pawn", he was planning on shipping the gun to me before I ever paid for it. In his mind, the gun was absolutely perfect. He agreed to cover the cost of having a gunsmith correct the problem, but my preference is to just buy the parts and do it myself, which will take much less time, and should have the same end result. ........if we went through with the first plan, and I examined the gun before paying for the gun, and I figured all this out, the smarter choice for me would have been to return it - but in every other way it seem/feels like a brand new gun. Oh well, that's now "water under the bridge". I can still buy another one if I want, and sell this one after it's fixed, but I don't plan to do that. I expect that I'll keep this one "forever".

I'm going ahead to make it into the gun I hoped it would be. I don't see how the "target" options, or lack of them, will make any difference in the performance of the gun. Is that correct, that they're more "cosmetic" than "functional"?

 

[bigggbbruce]

Replacing the slide will/maybe clean up some of the issues (canting). Midway usually has the slide assembly..at the moment they only show the .126.. measure what you have and see just what you need.

Smith & Wesson Rear Sight Blade Kit K L N-Frame .126 White Outline

 

[mikemyers]

Good idea; I found it difficult to measure accurately with everything still on the gun, but when I called S&W they confirmed it is 0.146" - which seems to match what I can measure.

I ordered the new part, along with the special tool for holding the nut, from Brownell's. In about ten days or so, I should be all set.

I think it was you who suggested earlier that I tighten the screw into my existing nut, then stake the nut. Without the special tool, or something I can make, this would be difficult. I fudged, and got the nut tightened as much as possible, then went to the range today. Unlike last time, I found I could adjust the sights, got the gun sighted in, and found it shoots very well even with these messed up parts.

The photo is the best I could do, off-hand, at 25 yards on a B-8 target...

 

[bigggbbruce]

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction...

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks.... I ordered the complete assembly, but before I replace the old one, I want to try to tighten the nut as described above, then back it out. I'd like to know if the rear sight "cant" still changes as I turn the adjusting screw.

Took it apart and cleaned it this morning - everything was cleaner than I expected, except the cylinder - took forever to clean that out (only using patches).


Something I'm puzzled about - another fellow came to the range yesterday with a 2019 S&W Model 17. With the exception of the grips, and the stupid locking hole, it looked pretty nice, and the stainless steel made it look more modern. I fired ten rounds with it, and while my grouping right/left was the same as with my gun it was as if I had no control over the elevation - the holes were strung out as if I was breathing while firing, which I wasn't. In my opinion, this was due to the tiny grips on the gun. They weren't stock, but they were the stock size (pun intended). The huge Nill grips on my gun allow me to hold the gun rock steady, more so than with many of my other guns. Do most people like the "toy grips" that come on the new guns?


Thinking about it, with the exception of the rear sight, the gun was every bit as nice as the seller described, and looked/felt like a brand new gun. I feel sorry for him, as he had no idea the rear sight was so messed up. The photos I sent him showed everything.... but the guy he bought it from should have told him about the sight. He told he he didn't shoot very well with the gun, and now we both know why. I also told him if he wanted it back, we could un-do the sale. Knowing why he couldn't shoot it well, I thought that was the right thing to do, but by then, I very much wanted to keep it.