Reloaded ammunition for Self Defense.

sniper

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For years, perhaps decades, one of the most prevalent messages from experts...Ayoob and others regarding reloaded ammunition in a self-defense situation: DON'T!

The reasoning behind this seems to be that the lawyers can't get "exemplar" ammunition for comparative firing and other purposes.
There are other reasons, like some defense attorney characterizing the reloader as someone who loads "killler bullets" to satisfy his bloodlust.

Factory ammo carried and used would seem to do away with the first scenario, but wouldn't clear reloading records and boxes of properly marked ammunition, the same as the carried/shot ammo (Don't EVER shoot to no ammo left.) provide all the "exemplar" loads anyone could wish...IF, and it is a large IF...the attorney is smart enough to take advantage of the records?

Having said that, $20-30 spent for a box of carry ammo would seem to eliminate any potential problems, and be a good investment.
 
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This subject rears it's ugly head periodically with the same comments
from the same posters. Too bad it won't die for good. The dire warnings
from the "experts" about smart prosecutors, killer bullets, and killer
intent on the part of someone defending his life. But NO ONE seems to
be able to show where anyone has been convicted of any crime what-so-
ever because of using handloads for SD. But the chicken littles are not
deterred. Bottom line, use what you want for SD. Factory or handloads.
Makes no difference.
 
Most of this is old worn out info from the past. It may have happened 30 or 40 years ago and I'm old enough to remember it. Ammo is not much of a issue anymore, it's more about the gun you use now you know that ugly black gun that the media and the lawyers get their claws in.
 
Well as you said in your original post.....spend the $20-30 on a box of carry ammo and be done with it.

That said, Ive NEVER heard of a case where the question of ammo being personally reloaded or from a factory came into play.

This falls into the same argument as the people who say "I wont buy a Springfield Hellcat (or insert any other "odd" name) cause if I have to use it the attorney could use the name against me"

Reality is if YOUR case comes down to the ammo/name of the gun.....youve likely already lost.

A good shoot is a good shoot no matter if you use a muzzle loader an AR-15 or something in between.
 
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I like most of what Ayoob has to say on self defense related topics but he's way out to lunch on the "don't use handloads" issue, or at least badly taking it out of context.

The only case I have ever heard where this was an issue was a case related by Ayoob where he was an expert witness for the defense. The case involved the wife of a handloader who shot herself with a .38 Special. The investigating officers confiscated *some* handloaded ammo and then based on forensic testing of *that* ammo determined that the evidence did not support a suicide.

The problem was that the wife shot herself with a target load that left comparatively little powder stippling at the short range necessary for a suicide. The self defense load that the officers found in the room and confiscated for testing, left a similar amount of stippling at a much longer range, and they thus concluded the husband had to have shot her.

The problem here wasn't hand loaded self defense ammo, the problem was having two different types of ammo. Ayoob did a good job of demonstrating that the ammo in the gun was not the same as the ammo confiscated, created reasonable doubt and the husband was aquitted.

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The take aways from this need to be:

1) Regardless of whether you use factory self defense ammo or handloads, you need to ensure that you keep your self defense ammo separate from your other ammo and keep it clearly marked as your self defense ammo.

2) If you do use hand loaded self defense ammo, you need to also ensure that you leave enough in the box to allow for forensic testing for velocity, powder stippling, etc.

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The value of a forensic database of factory ammo is in helping to identify what an unknown shooter may have been using, and thus helping to connect a suspect to the crime if ammo is confiscated in the course of arresting a suspect. In a self defense shoot, there isn't a question that you shot someone, so there is no need to try to identify a type of ammunition. There is potentially a need to verify your story by matching it to the ballistic evidence, which is where it is important that the police are able to properly locate, identify and confiscate the correct carry ammo to do that ballistic testing to verify your account of the events.

And again, that applies to both factory ammo and handloads.

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As to a prosecutor trying to paint you as a gun nut building extra deadly rounds to kill people, in the real world it's either a good shoot or it isn't and handloading your own self defense ammo isn't going to turn a good shoot into a bad one - unless you are doing something incredibly stupid like making explosive bullets, etc.

The argument can also easily be turned around. For example, I use Hornady 125 gr XTPs on top of 9.0 grains of Unique in a .357 Magnum case. The bullet gets about 1250-1300 fps in a 3" barrel and at that velocity gives very reliable expansion to around .55" and penetration just under 18" in 10% ballistic gel. That makes it a great self defense round.

However, it's also lower recoil compared to factory ammo using the same bullet, and that makes it a much more enjoyable range round, and one that is still very accurate as the XTPs have an excellent reputation for accuracy. In addition. Midway is currently selling 125 gr XTPs for $15.99 per box of 100. 9 grains of Unique costs me $0.03 and a primer costs me another $0.03, for a total of $0.22 per round, or $11.00 per box of 50. That makes it a very affordable range round that still costs less than the cheapest 38 Special I can find, and way cheaper than the cheapest .357 Mag I can find. (Tula .38 Special in their 130 gr FMJ loading is $11.50 per box, and Tula 158 gr FMJ is $13.95 per box.)

So in short, I don't have "self defense" ammo, I have an inexpensive JHP range round that I happen to carry in my self defense revolver. And since I load a lot of it and regularly expend in on the target range, it's actually the truth.
 
If a shoot is good with factory ammo, it's good with handloads.

If a shoot is good with a .380, it's good with a 10mm.

If a shoot is good with a .38, it's good with a .41 Magnum.

If a shoot is good with a .410, it's good with a 12-gauge.
 
I am certainly NOT disparaging Ayoob or anyone else on this matter.

I do believe Ayoob has good advice and experience in certain areas however as with all advice and experience.....it usually only comes from one or a few perspectives......and Ayoob cant possible have experience in all of them.

He may have had an experience with a case where reloads was an issue and thus his advice makes sense....after all if you can afford to reload you surely can afford $20 on a box of factory ammo.

At the end of the day what a few of us have said stands.....a good shoot....is a good shoot.
 
Factory ammo carried and used would seem to do away with the first scenario, but wouldn't clear reloading records and boxes of properly marked ammunition, the same as the carried/shot ammo (Don't EVER shoot to no ammo left.) provide all the "exemplar" loads anyone could wish...IF, and it is a large IF...the attorney is smart enough to take advantage of the records?

No. And even if it did, it would be one more thing to fight.

Everyone said:
A good shoot is a good shoot.

You guys are incredible optimists.

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For the love of God, can we stop having reloaded carry ammo threads? They never end well.
 
If ... and that is a big "If." If ... one is ever so unfortunate as to actually have to use a firearm in a SD/HD incident, one will not want to have any extra after incident headaches due to circumstances that can be controlled. Long long time ago I figured that whatever local LEO's carry would be a good choice for HD and SD concerns. So I used .38/.357 loads, 9mm loads, then .40 S&W and now ... 9mm! For practice, etc., I use range ammo that approximates the more serious stuff. For loading the pistol that stays by the bedside, etc., I of course use whatever is the flavor of the day in the caliber I prefer. Currently that is a Sig 226 in 9mm of course. Wonderful pistol. Excellent caliber. Oddly, was using a 9mm many years ago, but the ammo with all calibers including of course the 9mm has so much improved! Hard to make a mistake w/ first tier ammo. Sincerely. bruce.
 
I have been reading this for over 40 years now. I just carry factory and don't worry about it.

The devil is in the details, and there can be far larger things to worry about. How often do you shoot with your factory ammo?

I carry handloads, and I shoot them in my self defense handgun pretty much every range trip. I know they work, I know exactly where they shoot, and I shoot that exact load very well.

If I ever have to shoot in self defense, those are things I will not have to worry about.

In contrast, I have a few friends who only shoot factory ammo, and they frankly can't afford to shoot a top tier self defense load very often. More often than not their carry ammo has been carried the better part of a year and is literally green.

They'd be far better served by something more affordable but still very effective, like Remington's green and white box 9mm 115 gr JHP - or a well made and properly thought out hand loaded JHP operating in the middle of it's expansion envelope.
 
I usually carry ready-rolls for defense but I do shoot a lot of hand loads for practice and hunting. If something happened when I had my loads in my gun I certainly wouldn't take time to unload and reload with factory ammunition.
 
Univibe pretty much hit the nail on the head. If it's a good shoot, it isn't going to matter. If it's a bad shoot, it isn't going to matter. It dosen't matter if the ammo was dipped in holy water and blessed by the Pope, you are going to be sued no matter what. You would be better off using your energy consulting an attorney about how to protect your assets than worrying about what your carry ammo is. It amazes me how many gun owners I know that will pay a G note for a new gun but won't spend a few hundred bucks to set up a trust to protect their family. As far a Ayoob is concerned, he is entertaining and knowledgeable and I like to read his stuff but 95% of what he says is nothing but hyperbole.
 
iu
 
This thread just reminded me that I need to get out to the shop and reload thirty rounds of .40 S&W for my new nightstand pistol, thanks.
 
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