Relevance of Short Barreled Big Bore Revolvers for Modern Self-Defense

[FiveG]

What about if you live in a unfree state?

Capacity discussions are nice and all, but if you live in a state that makes carrying more than ten in a magazine illegal, now the difference is down. And respectfully, I've seen some pretty fast speedloader reloads under pressure.

 

[waffles]

Capacity discussions are nice and all, but if you live in a state that makes carrying more than ten in a magazine illegal, now the difference is down. And respectfully, I've seen some pretty fast speedloader reloads under pressure.

An extra 4-5 rounds difference is still a pretty significant advantage, and for most of us mere mortals the autoloader reloads go a fair bit faster than speedloaders.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

According to master defensive firearms instructor Tom Givens, most gunfights involving civilians and felons takes place at a distance of approximately three to five yards, approximately three and one-half rounds are fired, and no further shooting takes place after approximately three seconds.

Explain to me HOW you fire a 1/2 of a round??? Please!

You fire three functional rounds and one squib, which makes it only halfway out of the case and ties up the cylinder. That is why no further shooting takes place.

 

[IrishFritz]

One thing we rarely talk about is ergonomics. I believe none of us practice enough to be able to say that we shoot our carry gun enough that in the case of a high stress encounter we will automatically be able to manipulate our gun to its best advantage. Some military and police units practice shooting hundreds of rounds a week to instill and maintain instinctive accurate fire. (I have been told by those who know that training goes out the window when the **** hits the fan and all that is left is instinct). If that be true then it follows that the more ergonomically correct a handgun is for us as individuals the better off we will be. A case in point; back in the day before I became enlightened I used to carry a Browning Hi-Power. For me, the Hi-power is about as naturally pointing a handgun as there is to the extent that I could pick a point on the wall, close my eyes and point the handgun and when I opened my eyes I'd be aiming very close to my target. In fact, at short ranges I didn't need the sights. Conversely, a 1911 points low for me and I have to consciously compensate. The point to my comments is that we would be far better off choosing our handgun on how well it fits rather than how many rounds it holds. Fortunately a 4" 57 or 29 with full target grips fit me to a "T" as well.

 

[sabashimon]

One thing we rarely talk about is ergonomics. I believe none of us practice enough to be able to say that we shoot our carry gun enough that in the case of a high stress encounter we will automatically be able to manipulate our gun to its best advantage. Some military and police units practice shooting hundreds of rounds a week to instill and maintain instinctive accurate fire. (I have been told by those who know that training goes out the window when the **** hits the fan and all that is left is instinct). If that be true then it follows that the more ergonomically correct a handgun is for us as individuals the better off we will be. A case in point; back in the day before I became enlightened I used to carry a Browning Hi-Power. For me, the Hi-power is about as naturally pointing a handgun as there is to the extent that I could pick a point on the wall, close my eyes and point the handgun and when I opened my eyes I'd be aiming very close to my target. In fact, at short ranges I didn't need the sights. Conversely, a 1911 points low for me and I have to consciously compensate. The point to my comments is that we would be far better off choosing our handgun on how well it fits rather than how many rounds it holds. Fortunately a 4" 57 or 29 with full target grips fit me to a "T" as well.

IrishFritz, while I respect that you've been told this by "those who know", I can't agree. Having been through a couple of wars and years of reserve deployments in less then friendly environs, it's true that instinct plays a role. Some have it and some don't, but to say that training goes out the window is simply false, IME. There is no question in my mind that training, and I mean lots of training, not once or twice a week to the range type training, will make a HUGE difference when the **** hits the fan. Train enough, and train hard, and it WILL kick in when you need it.
Just my two shekels worth.

 

[Univibe]

With what you carry, what is your plan when three armed thugs walk into the store and fire the shot into the ceiling?

How would I know? Depends on the situation. You know what they say about plans not surviving first contact. But I have 35 rounds on one reload. Being able to keep your gun running, when beset by multiple assailants, is paramount.

Another factor not yet mentioned. You may be moving rapidly while reloading. Much easier to punch out a magazine and cram in a new one than to fumble with a speed loader and the flopping cylinder crane of an empty revolver.

 

[mikerjf]

Statistics is three men hunting... one misses the deer on the right, the second misses on the left, the third says "We got him!"

 

[YkcorCal]

Statistics...................... averages.......... really!!!!

"three and a half rounds fired"........ really!!!!

The odds of one ever needing to fire their handgun is something like 1 in a 1,000,000 ( made up stat)........... so you can argue there's really no need to even carry a loaded gun.

My philosophy......................

Prepare for the worst... hope/pray for the best!

Every gun be it an auto or a revolver has its strengths and its weaknesses just as each individual does.

In a close quarters gunfight there are certain qualities in a firearm that can make or brake the difference in whether you live or die. You can press a short barreled revolver into the body of an individual and it can still fire but if you do that with an auto the slide will most likely be pushed out of battery and fail to fire or at best fire only once before jamming. The revolver can be stopped by a strong grab around the cylinder as the auto can be stopped by shoving the slide back in a close range struggle. As I say all firearms have their limitations. One has to study and learn gunfighting techniques, counter techniques, gun retentions, as well as hand to hand techniques to survive a gun fight in real life. There are quite a few good books and instructors that teach the subject.

Sometimes a "New York Reload" is faster, a better and a life saving option than reloading your empty firearm.

Thinking about TACTICS is the key here and what I want people to think about here. It is not about how many rounds you can carry.

 

[YkcorCal]

No.

1. Contrary to what people believe, reloading a revolver in a short range shootout is virtually impossible. Six is all you get.

2. Gangstas travel in packs, and most of them have semis.

3. Forget statistics. Plan for worst cases when it's your life.

4. How many pros stake their life on a big bore revolver?

5. Load your big bore revolver with dummies
Challenge someone with an airsoft pistol to a fight. You will be humbled, and you will go out and buy a double stack plastic gun.

6. See videos of real encounters
You can empty that revolver in 2 or 3 seconds. Then what?

7. Nobody in the civilian nor LEO world understands the concept of suppression fire
The above mentioned airsoft kid does. He's been in hundreds of realistic shootouts. Suppression uses ammo.

This is your new average. You're in a cell phone store. Three armed thugs come in. One fires a shot at the ceiling. They announce a robbery. You with your revolver are almost hopelessly outgunned. If you contrive to live, you can discuss how things don't change with Mr Campbell.

If you choose revolver, perhaps Mr. Tom Givens will condescend to speak your eulogy when you run out of ammo and die.

Who says I carry only one gun be it a revolver or single stack auto? You are not thinking tactically but limiting someone to just one gun to fit your scenario.

 

[Univibe]

Who says I carry only one gun be it a revolver or single stack auto? You are not thinking tactically but limiting someone to just one gun to fit your scenario.

I have thought of that. If arthritis or some other condition limits me to a revolver, I plan to carry 3 of them. The New York reload makes sense.

 

[sipowicz]

Why not? We're not talking belt fed tactics here.
You might have to burn 4 or 5 rounds to get to cover. You can do that if you're packing a M&P and a spare mag. Likely not, with a revolver.

Civilian shoot outs with cover? If you are defending your life after a few shots either you will be running or the bad guy will.

 

[Donn]

Threads like this always bring out the "what if" and "yeah but" brigade in force. The same bunch that eschews revolvers will do the same to any who choose a single stack auto or who don't carry X number of spare mags. I carried an M-16, basic load, and a 1911 BUG when I was in-country, but that was a world away, a long time ago. I don't have to run toward the gunfire any more. If my Shield 45 and one spare mag turn out not to be enough, all the brigade members here can say a collective, "I told you so." Till then, have a nice day.

 

[YkcorCal]

We're on a forum populated by us revolver loving luddites, so keep that in mind and expect that to color a lot of the responses.

No, I don't think the revolver is still relevant. For awhile they held on with ultra small carry revolvers (J frames, LCR, etc) and big revolvers for big game, and those still have their advantages, but even they are getting supplanted by small autos like the LCP, G43, an P365, or more powerful autos like the Glock 20 by more and more users.

The full size service revolver has not been relevant for some time. If we're playing the statistics game, none of us are ever going to get into a gunfight in the civilian world, so we may as well just not carry a gun at all, but since we're clearly not going down that road, we may as well use the best tools for the job.

For less than the weight and less than the size (and less than the price...) of a 2.5" Model 19/66 I can use my P365XL and have twice the capacity, faster reloads, better reliability (this gets debated to death, I've had many more issues with revolver reliability than I have with modern autos, and the revolver failures have all been show stoppers until you can get back to the workbench), and similar or better ballistics due to the barrel lengths.

Will a revolver still kill someone dead? Damn right it will. Is it the best defensive tool? Absolutely not. They're still neat and I still love em but we can all do that without ignoring progress in the defensive gun space.

Actually I like and love both the big bore revolver and big bore autos. As soon as I get another CCW I for one plan to carry both because as I say they both have their strong and week points.

When I had my CCW before I carried a 13 shot .45 ACP and I would add to that now a S&W Performance Center 629 2.6" .44 Mag. loaded with .44 Special +P ammo. Being the size I am I can conceal both on my frame. Why some people have to get so nasty in their comments reflects on their own insecurities in my humble opinion. There have been stopping fails from all calibers of guns used by police including the 12 gauge shotgun and all handgun calibers including the vaunted current rage of 9MM hollow points. Maybe you need to carry a 100 rounds as you never know when you might run in to one of Jimmy Carter's vicious bunny rabbits.

 

[Buford57]

How would I know? Depends on the situation. You know what they say about plans not surviving first contact. But I have 35 rounds on one reload. Being able to keep your gun running, when beset by multiple assailants, is paramount.

Another factor not yet mentioned. You may be moving rapidly while reloading. Much easier to punch out a magazine and cram in a new one than to fumble with a speed loader and the flopping cylinder crane of an empty revolver.

Unless cell phone stores in Texas are a LOT larger than ours (I know, everything in Texas is) I think anyone in the store will be lucky to survive 35 rounds of your running fire.

 

[waffles]

Actually I like and love both the big bore revolver and big bore autos. As soon as I get another CCW I for one plan to carry both because as I say they both have their strong and week points.

When I had my CCW before I carried a 13 shot .45 ACP and I would add to that now a S&W Performance Center 629 2.6" .44 Mag. loaded with .44 Special +P ammo. Being the size I am I can conceal both on my frame. Why some people have to get so nasty in their comments reflects on their own insecurities in my humble opinion. There have been stopping fails from all calibers of guns used by police including the 12 gauge shotgun and all handgun calibers including the vaunted current rage of 9MM hollow points. Maybe you need to carry a 100 rounds.

If you consider the comment you quoted nasty, I may be missing something or you may be a bit thin skinned. And 100% agreed on stopping failures, that's why I'd rather have more chances for far less size, weight, and follow up shot time.

 

[Univibe]

Civilian shoot outs with cover? If you are defending your life after a few shots either you will be running or the bad guy will.

This is an example of the certainty that can get us in trouble. How do you know those are the only two possibilities? Can you bet your life on it? What if events quickly prove you wrong? What if there are three bad guys and nobody's running, and you have nowhere to run? What if you're hit, unable to run, but still in the fight? What if you get five solid hits on the bad guy, but he keeps on fighting?

Everybody assumes it'll be settled in 3 or 4 rounds. Real situations say otherwise.

 

[YkcorCal]

If you consider the comment you quoted nasty, I may be missing something or you may be a bit thin skinned. And 100% agreed on stopping failures, that's why I'd rather have more chances for far less size, weight, and follow up shot time.

Calling people here, "We're on a forum populated by us revolver loving luddites" is not my idea of being cordial or friendly.

 

[shocker]

For me a big bore carry gun would be my Glock 29. For whatever reason, I'm dead nuts accurate with the first shot with that gun. And the recoil doesn't preclude a fast 2nd shot. That's leaves me with 9 more just in case.

 

[waffles]

Calling people here, "We're on a forum populated by us revolver loving luddites" is not my idea of being cordial or friendly.

Well "us" is inclusive of the writer, in this case me, so I'd call it friendly if a bit self deprecating.

 

[YkcorCal]

Waffles some of us unfortunate Americans live in the Peoples Socialist Republic of California where we do not even have the RIGHT to self defense under the California State Constitution. For the last six years after I made the stupid mistake of agreeing to relocate here, I have been trying to convince my wife to move just across the border into Arizona. She is almost there because her liberal daughter-in-law so limits her access to her grandchildren she is about fed up. Maybe then we can get the girls to come visit for a week or two at a time she is thinking. It would be nice to live in a Free State again away from the stares and dirty looks we get here when we go into a gun store.