J-Frames and 25yard qualifications

[Dutch87]

"but for a starter J-frame, I think a light .357 (even fired in 38) might not be as good a choice as a 637 (or 642 style)".

637-2 is my favorite handgun. I lighten them up with a titanium cylinder and ream them for 9x19. Recoil is a lot worse than .38Sp, but not nearly as bad as .357Mag.

That's pretty neat, modifying the gun like that?
Hmm. You know now part of me is thinking, maybe one day down the line I take this 637, put an unfluted cylinder on it (I just like the look!), get it machined for a frontsight if possible, have my own custom setup.

 

[Dutch87]

Dutch, Sorry, just re read whole thread. You mentioned 1911’s, so thats enough for me. Might be a big job but find a LW Commander. Guess you can wear shirt tail out in warm months and of course wear coats in cooler months, easy to conceal. I have found my custom LW Commander is lighter, flatter to carry than my favorite wheel guns, 3” 65, 2&1/2” M-66. Also carry a 640 when just around house or not going far around here.
Try as many different pistols/ revolvers as you can. You will know when its right.

I love the platform - I'm currently reading that we might be able to get 4 handguns on the carry permit.
If that's the case, I couldn't agree more.

In addition to the J-frame and a G42, I'd slap on 2x 1911s, and think to myself, "Is this what it's like to be in a free state???"

 

[GaryS]

In a free state, you don't have a limit on how many guns you can put on your permit because in a free state you don't need a permit.

I love the platform - I'm currently reading that we might be able to get 4 handguns on the carry permit.
If that's the case, I couldn't agree more.

In addition to the J-frame and a G42, I'd slap on 2x 1911s, and think to myself, "Is this what it's like to be in a free state???"

 

[Doug M.]

Dutch: Yup, I have read up on ballistics. and I know a fair number of folks who have been studying LE use of force for a long time, as have I. Take a look for the book by Urey Patrick and John Hall. "In defense of self and others". That's not the full title but your favorite search engine should get you there. Much of it is directed to law enforcement legal issues, but it is all good background knowledge and the discussions of ballistics and ethics are especially useful. The 3rd edition is current.

.380? There are indications that some JHP work adequately well it that caliber, but that is largely moot for you. I have a G42, and it took a while to break in (I have detailed it elsewhere on this forum) enough to feed anything but ball. Reliability is first, and some .380s are more finicky. (In fairness, I note that some folks on this forum have reported no break-in issues with their G42s.)

I have to compensate for my skills and disabilities, such as my eyes. Red dot sights are a real bonus for my eyes, but most of my life is lived in a manner that discreet pocket carry is most useful; I don't see that working well with a red dot. I can qualify with heavier ammo; done it with .41 Magnum hunting loads, hot .357s, etc. As a practical matter, however, mid range SWC loads work pretty well and the improvement in placement and speed is more useful than raw power. Due to surgeries and such, I lost a bunch of conditioning, so compensating for that is important. YMMV.

 

[Old cop]

I have to respectfully disagree with those who say pocket snag from an exposed hammer is not a problem.

IMHO you can't beat a 638.

I learned to put my thumb over the hammer when drawing from a pocket holster & it worked every time.

 

[rincar]

I think that a J frame S&W with a 3inch Barrel. Would be just the ticket for what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[JimCunn]

" get it machined for a frontsight if possible, "

I just put a spot of orange Neon Pop fingernail polish on the stock front sight. Works great.

I've been pocket carrying J-frames with external hammers for 60 years. So far, hammer snag hasn't been a problem. I don't think I'm gonna worry much about it becoming one.

 

[jglsprings]

638 with Crimson Trace grips ��. Best of all worlds.
Hammer guns are ok with a little practice. Fingers go on grips thumb goes on hammer whether drawing from a pocket a belt holster or an ankle.

^^^
This +++

Don't tell my model 60 she is a drag...

I've never had a snag - but I practice for one.

I find I'm more concerned about weight... The lighter guns go more often..

 

[Der Verminator]

638 with Crimson Trace grips ��. Best of all worlds.
Hammer guns are ok with a little practice. Fingers go on grips thumb goes on hammer whether drawing from a pocket a belt holster or an ankle.

Yes.

The thumb can even just go alongside the hammer and the hammer cannot snag.

Hammer snagging is a popular myth.

 

[rockquarry]

big problem with most revolvers is that the grip to muzzle ratio is disproportionate. the fulcrum and center of balance is off. with an m&p shield or m&p 2.0 compact 3.6 inch, the ratio is 1 to 1. with a revolver, it's usually 2:1 or3:1.


the ideal carry revolver thus has to be shaped like this. but the 327 is oversized. i would shrink it down to a k frame with 6 shot capacity instead

I don't doubt your words, but I've never noticed such a balance problem. Is this something real or believed to be real? What is the source of this information?

Or, is it just a joke considering the revolver that's depicted?

 

[shawn mccarver]

Thanks to Justice Thomas we just got carry rights in my state!
The hitch: We have to qualify with carry guns, including making some 25 yard shots.

After spending many hours reading some of the threads here (A huge thank you to all the guys who have shared their thoughts and compiled knowledge on this board over the years!)

I'm thinking of:
- A Model 36 classic
- A 637 performance center
- A 360PD

Something light, pocket-carry worthy, and with a hammer (for purposes of longer shots, SA would make it easier at my "skilled but not Jerry Miculek with a J-frame skilled" shooting level).
Budget isn't a dealbreaker for me - I would prefer to buy new if I could.

In my state we cannot carry with hollow points, so I'm thinking I might actually be best served with wadcutters for practice AND carry, making the recoil of a 360PD more bareable.

Thoughts?

A couple of thoughts.

First, if you use the technique first put forth by our friend Mas Ayoob, pocket carry with an exposed hammer is not a problem. Put your thumb on the hammer during the presentation and the thumb basically turns the snub into a Centennial.

Secondly, back when a snub was the preferred option for pocket carry, it was possible, with sufficient practice, to do pretty well even at 25 yards.

That said, the SIG Sauer P365 is like carrying two J Frames (and with the 12-round magazine two Colt D Frames), and it is much easier to make 25 yard shots with the P365. There are other good choices for pocket carry that make those 25 yard shots easier than with the J Frame. I still like the J Frames, but mostly for the nostalgia.

 

[sipowicz]

To carry my model 60 (bobbed hammer) I had to qual at 25 yards. Got a 258 out of 300. 210 was passing. A decent trigger job really helps double action.

 

[AJ]

Qualifying with a 2" J-Frame can be accomplished. Takes some skill and practice. I was assigned to Naval Station Long Beach as the Marine Cadre (Auxiliary Security Force Trainer/Advisor). After watching me teach a class the senior CPO's in the Security Department told the Security Officer that I needed to replace their present range master. Once that was done, I decided that I needed to qualify with all the handguns that were used within the security department. They had M1911's, S&W K-Frames, Ruger Security Six's , and S&W J-Frames. I qual'd with all, and with the 2" J-Frame I shot a 240 out of 240. Their course was at 15 and 25 yards.

 

[sbrmike]

I carry a full hammer model 37 Airweight square butt every day. I have Zero issues with the exposed hammer. I shoot 158 grain Lead Semi-Wad Cutters in mine. You have to practice more with any short barrel compared to longer barrels. It will do the job if you put forth the effort.

The shrouded hammer would be an option if you can cock it easily enough to qualify.

 

[benf1]

Dutch87,
I'm in NJ and qualified with my Shield 45. It's my understanding that you have to qualify with each gun you intend to carry, and they are listed on the permit. I submitted everything end of August. Hornady Critical Duty and Defense are permitted in NJ, but don't take my word for it, check out the NJSP website. Only a very few are receiving permits as it seems most judges are not complying.If I actually do get my permit I plan on qualifying with my 642 as well, and have it added to the permit. Most of the quals are as you described, so you could miss 25 yds. as long as you make the others. To me the Q target was pretty big (I wear glasses too) so be confident and you'll do fine. Since I don't know if it's appropriate to list other gun forums here if you pm me I can send you a link to one dealing with NJ gun people that discusses the application/qualification process in detail.
Stay safe,
Ben

 

[Dutch87]

" get it machined for a frontsight if possible, "

I just put a spot of orange Neon Pop fingernail polish on the stock front sight. Works great.

I've been pocket carrying J-frames with external hammers for 60 years. So far, hammer snag hasn't been a problem. I don't think I'm gonna worry much about it becoming one.

Alright! This is pretty reassuring
#Hammer Time

 

[Dutch87]

To carry my model 60 (bobbed hammer) I had to qual at 25 yards. Got a 258 out of 300. 210 was passing. A decent trigger job really helps double action.

That's a reason I'm leaning toward the 637PC - I can get something with the action being smoother right out of the box. Saves me ~1,500 dry fires to smooth the action ( the number I see the experienced gentlemen here say!). So the 1,500 dryfires into snapcaps I do before the range are with a "finished" trigger.

Qualifying with a 2" J-Frame can be accomplished. Takes some skill and practice. I was assigned to Naval Station Long Beach as the Marine Cadre (Auxiliary Security Force Trainer/Advisor). After watching me teach a class the senior CPO's in the Security Department told the Security Officer that I needed to replace their present range master. Once that was done, I decided that I needed to qualify with all the handguns that were used within the security department. They had M1911's, S&W K-Frames, Ruger Security Six's , and S&W J-Frames. I qual'd with all, and with the 2" J-Frame I shot a 240 out of 240. Their course was at 15 and 25 yards.

That's excellent. If I can pass, that would be excellent - if I throw up a perfect score, I'm running back here for high-fives

"You guys were right!!"

 

[Dutch87]

I carry a full hammer model 37 Airweight square butt every day. I have Zero issues with the exposed hammer. I shoot 158 grain Lead Semi-Wad Cutters in mine. You have to practice more with any short barrel compared to longer barrels. It will do the job if you put forth the effort.

The shrouded hammer would be an option if you can cock it easily enough to qualify.

Fantastic - that's effectively what I'm going to try to do!

Why the 158 semi-wadcutters vs full-wadcutters, if I may so ask?

 

[Dutch87]

Dutch87,
I'm in NJ and qualified with my Shield 45. It's my understanding that you have to qualify with each gun you intend to carry, and they are listed on the permit. I submitted everything end of August. Hornady Critical Duty and Defense are permitted in NJ, but don't take my word for it, check out the NJSP website. Only a very few are receiving permits as it seems most judges are not complying.If I actually do get my permit I plan on qualifying with my 642 as well, and have it added to the permit. Most of the quals are as you described, so you could miss 25 yds. as long as you make the others. To me the Q target was pretty big (I wear glasses too) so be confident and you'll do fine. Since I don't know if it's appropriate to list other gun forums here if you pm me I can send you a link to one dealing with NJ gun people that discusses the application/qualification process in detail.
Stay safe,
Ben

Fantastic choice IMHO, with no hollowpoints (aside from the ones on the NJSP website, and even then a lot of people don't want to be "the test case"), .45's a great choice.

I'm looking at a few other places for the Carry/qually info stuff, I may have seen your posts there!

I kinda felt like, "Hey if qualifying at 25 with the J-frame is a silly idea, I think the S&W forum guys would know best and would be willing to say so."

I wonder if they're true, the stories of guys applying and getting redflagged by over-zealous bureaucrats.
Getting FIDs, getting Pistol Purchase permits, finger printed, all that. A non-disqualifier gets found later right as they're trying to NOT give out carry permits? Red-flag, guns gone.

 

[sipowicz]

This may be blasphemy but if I were buying a new 5 shot it would be the Ruger. Amazing trigger out of the box compared to a j frame.