Terminology

[DARE]

I have heard different opinions on how a particular gun should be referred to. The division seems to be what the collecting community called things, or "collector speak" as opposed to what S&W called them. There may also be difference of opinion on what S&W called them.

Let's use the .38 M&P as an example.
SCS&W 4th Edition breaks them down like this.

.38 M&P 1st Model (Model of 1899 Army Navy Revolver)
Round butt K frame 4 screws.

.38 M&P, Model of 1902 (.38 M&P 2nd Model)
Round butt K frame 4 screws.

.38 M&P Model of 1902, 1st Change
Round butt K frame 4 screws.

.38 M&P Model of 1905 (.38 M&P 3rd Model)
Round or square butt K frame 5 screws.

.38 M&P Model of 1905, 1st Change, 2nd Change, 3rd Change, 4th Change.
Round or square butt K frame 5 screws.

Have heard that after about 1915 S&W called the guns .38 M&P without the model year. Have also heard people say that round butt guns should be called Model of 1902 and square butt guns should be Model of 1905 even though SCSW says Model of 1905 was round butt or square butt. SCSW uses the Model of 1905 terminology for guns that were built as late as 1942.

The only old catalog I have is from 1941. It says M&P (not .38 M&P) for the fixed sight guns with round or square butt. Says .38 M&P Target for the adjustable sight gun.

I'm sure I will get some differences of opinion on this.

 

[Sevens]

I’ve come to learn and to accept that some terms that we use, maybe that we even rely on… were perhaps NEVER used by Smith & Wesson themselves, either now or when the guns were actually in production and offered.

 

[Truckman]

I’ve come to learn and to accept that some terms that we use, maybe that we even rely on… were perhaps NEVER used by Smith & Wesson themselves, either now or when the guns were actually in production and offered.

I can also accept and use most of them, including the ones David listed in his opening post...But what sets my teeth on edge is the "pre-anything"...As mentioned in another thread, S&W would only have used that designation if a time machine had been available!......Ben

 

[gmborkovic]

Hey Truckman, what does "lemon squeezer" do to your teeth? Just funnin you. Or pencil barrel? How about "yolk".

 

[rct269]

Let's just do one this time around---only because it seems to arouse the most fussing and fuming--and God help me if I screw anything up!

I had two Model of 1902 M&P Targets in my collection. Model of 1902 M&P Targets is what I called them. These are the "pre 5 screw 4 screws"---with the monkey motion action (some levers instead of a rebound slide to tend to trigger control). Jinks called the first (earliest) one "the .38 Hand Ejector, Military & Police Second Model or Model of 1902".) As an aside, it had a round butt.

The second (later) one was exactly the same to look at it, except it had a square butt. Jinks called that one a ".38 Military & Police Model of 1902 First Change Target".

All that was now. I don't know exactly what S&W called the later gun in its entirety, but they called it a Model of 1905 in their catalogs of the time. As noted, it's exactly the same as the earlier gun to look at it---except for the butt.

As another aside, I'm told all this first/second/etc. "change" business is collector speak as opposed to factory terminology---and identifies picayune changes---from one "change" to another. I never paid a whole lot of attention to these changes, because I was told it could cause me to go blind! That said, there are folks who DO pay attention to them, and you'd be ill advised to argue with them about it----because you'd end up on the losing end of such debates. Just nod, and keep smiling.

As yet another aside, if you ever have one of these things, and are inclined to take it apart, Mike Priwer invented a special tool to save you from yourself and eternal damnation---for both disassembly and reassembly. It is simplicity itself, and will save your bacon!

Ralph Tremaine

As yet one more aside, this special tool will also save you from using Dave Chicoine's favorite tool when disassembling one of these things---his "reverse pliers". He recommends using them to control the trigger spring----a great, stout, leaf spring pinned in place on the inside of the front strap of the grip frame. It's been awhile since I've read his instructions, and I may have misunderstood them in the first place, but it seemed as though I was to have my hammer in one hand, my punch in the other hand, and my "reverse pliers" in my third hand. Blessed with the knowledge Mike Priwer had very likely forgotten more about these things than anybody else knows, I picked up the phone. It was "a piece of cake" from then on!!

 

[Truckman]

Hey Truckman, what does "lemon squeezer" do to your teeth? Just funnin you. Or pencil barrel? How about "yolk".

Those don't bother me much, except maybe "yolk" which makes me hungry...I look at two of them every morning...But if I have to "crane" my neck to stir up those yolks, I might get a little cranky...

Hey these are the yokes, folks...I'm here all week...Try the veal......Ben

 

[gmborkovic]

Ben, have a Mary! You have a head start.

 

[Sevens]

Though I definitely understand how & why the term can be annoying… I find the “pre-Model” terms to be extremely helpful. I suspect others do also.

They may not be correct, per se, but they go directly to the point and paint a picture quickly. For folks that are trying to identify or refer to something specific, the pre-Model term we often use not only works, but it works quickly and it’s fairly specific.

 

[DARE]

I had two guns that I asked Roy Jinks to give a ship date on. In his response Roy referred to them as pre-models.
A Model of 1955 .22/32 Airweight Kit Gun that Roy called a Pre-43.
A S&W 9mm Auto that Roy called a Pre-39.
The term is also used in SCS&W 4th quite often.

 

[rct269]

Though I definitely understand how & why the term can be annoying… I find the “pre-Model” terms to be extremely helpful. I suspect others do also.

They may not be correct, per se, but they go directly to the point and paint a picture quickly. For folks that are trying to identify or refer to something specific, the pre-Model term we often use not only works, but it works quickly and it’s fairly specific.

Yeah, BUT!!

While it very well may work quickly and fairly specifically for the youngsters, for some of the old farts like me who can't abide model numbers in the first place, it's a pain in the butt!! More often than not, given an identifier of "pre-model" whatever, I have to go look up what a Model whatever is to begin with! I'm given to suppose those who use the "pre-model" terminology do so, because they don't know what the proper name is---and I'm irritated!

Viva la difference!

Then again, I'm more irritated with the fact the use of model numbers rather than names speaks volumes about the changing philosophy of those who make the product in the first place. There was a time, from 1857 to the mid 1950's, when S&W's philosophy very clearly was "We will be successful if we make the best possible product for the price." (That's one of only two such philosophies extant among the world's manufacturers.)

The other philosophy goes like this: "We will be successful if we make the product at the lowest possible cost." Operating a business at the lowest possible cost calls for many sacrifices. One among them is not being willing to hire folks with enough savvy and imagination to come up with names rather than numbers. Another is not being willing to hire Customer Service folks who are able to serve the customers. Talking to Customer Service folks back in the day was a treat---they knew what YOU were talking about---AND what they were talking about! Today's mental midgets are a poor substitute!

Sad but true!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[spin132]

As yet another aside, if you ever have one of these things, and are inclined to take it apart, Mike Priwer invented a special tool to save you from yourself and eternal damnation---for both disassembly and reassembly. It is simplicity itself, and will save your bacon!



Ralph Tremaine

Ralph speaks truth here! Ralph was kind enough to advise me of the Priwer Tool and Mike graciously walked me through the process on this 1902. Many thanks and Merry Christmas to both of these great gents! Here is a picture of the simple tool in action. Not sure I would have attempted without their help. The tool made the job quite manageable.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[rct269]

Ralph speaks truth here! Ralph was kind enough to advise me of the Priwer Tool and Mike graciously walked me through the process on this 1902. Many thanks and Merry Christmas to both of these great gents! Here is a picture of the simple tool in action. Not sure I would have attempted without their help. The tool made the job quite manageable.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

And spin's installation differs from mine, in that mine is against the top end of the spring, and the interior frame piece with the screw hole in it. I'm thinking spin's is more secure, given the placement at the top-----which allows for no movement whatsoever---not that mine's ever moved, but the possibility exists----and then some bad words might be called for!

Ralph Tremaine

The bottom line is whatever's out of the way works.

 

[steelslaver]

The main and most important function of language is to convey ones thoughts to another. The more precisely that can be done with the least amount of words the better. Everything else is just fluff. BUT, THE MAIN THING WILL ALWAYS BE GET YOUR MEANING ACROSS

Some of the "purist" make me laugh.

They get upset over things like "long" colt, when at one time there actual was a need for adjective. Then they turn around and use the name "Triple Lock" when S&W never marketed any such animal, they sold "New Centuries"

Stocks -Grips, who cares that is a silly thing to worry about

Yoke, Crane about the same. Using yolk will just egg them on

I really get barrel extension vs forcing cone, the forcing cone is the taper that has been reamed into the beginning of the bore itself. The extension is what sticks through the frame.

 

[lestert357]

13 posts and nobody has mentioned “Transitional”! Merry Christmas!

 

[Retired W4]

There have been many times I wished I had a third hand.
Pre-model MARKED requires only one more syllable when referring to post war guns. but there is always a quick synapse that sparks...which war? Don't worry. Just assume it's WW II. So many terms to sort out and so little time, technically speaking that is. I do love the work, now that I don't have anything else to do.

 

[glowe]

Though I definitely understand how & why the term can be annoying… I find the “pre-Model” terms to be extremely helpful. I suspect others do also.

They may not be correct, per se, but they go directly to the point and paint a picture quickly. For folks that are trying to identify or refer to something specific, the pre-Model term we often use not only works, but it works quickly and it’s fairly specific.

. . . and it is TOTALLY wrong! SCSW4 offers a designation of 38 Military & police (postwar) "Pre-Model 10". My first question is how did S&W know that they were going to be changing the name to Model 10 back in 1946? One thing the company NEVER did was advertise their K frame revolvers as Pre-anything. It is just plain wrong to use the term pre-Model 10, over 10 years before the company invented the model numbering system. They were, and are simply Military & Police revolvers until 1957. Cannot be easier to remember.

There is also the issue of many people using the term Pre-Model 10 for every K frame fixed sight revolver. How many times have you read the term used on guns that actually date to pre-WWI?? The post-WWII gun was the exact same gun as the pre-WWII guns and so both should be the same model name.

 

[22hipower]

I hesitate to weigh in on this worthy debate but will anyway. When someone tells me they have a 357 Magnum for sale, or perhaps a 44 Magnum, I really don't know much about what they may actually have. If they know enough to include a model/dash number then I know much more. If they can state that it is a "pre-model" then I know much more. And if they can confirm it is "pre-war" I know even more.

So no, the "pre-model" terminology doesn't bother me a bit. If the user knows enough to use that description I'll be able to figure out what he/she has. If all they can tell me is that they have a 357 Magnum or 44 Magnum, even though they are correct in their terminology, I really have little information as to what it actually is.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[Retired W4]

I'm still on the hunt for a pre-war 44 Magnum.

 

[22hipower]

I'm still on the hunt for a pre-war 44 Magnum.

Me too, but if a guy tells me he has one, I know more, much more, than I did when he just said it was a 44 Magnum.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

clips--magazines........stocks --grips.........pigs--hogs.......cats--felines
Never been a grammer nazi and don't like those who are