21 foot rule?

ronmanci

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I was listening to a firearms instructor on the radio this morning. He said that a person with a knife, that is 21 feet away (7 yards), can stab you before you can draw and fire your weapon. On avarage. First time I ever heard this analogy. What do you guys think?
 
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Its called the Tueller Drill after Salt Lake City, Utah Police Sergeant Dennis Tueller. Tueller discovered that a person with a knife could run the distance of 21 feet or 7 yards in 1.5 seconds. It has been around for awhile, I know our department practices it at the range when qualifying, and I believe in it since I have seen a demonstration of it performed.
 
I think its quite realistic. It has been observed in officer training for over 20 years.
 
U.S. Army knife fighting Rule Number 1:
RUN AWAY --- Get a gun or a friend with a gun - Return to the *knife fight*.

Surely they haven't changed that in the last 40 years.....

There are no winners in a knife fight - Only various degrees of losers!
Someone pulls a knife - You want distance - NOW. It's not time to draw your gun - Do that as you retreat.
 
I'm with Deadaye, that all depends on you being stationary while he lunges at you with a knife. I would have the barrel of my gun against his forehead, squeezing the trigger, while he is trying to stab my hiney. Cuz, I'm running. Knives just don't have enough range.
 
See if you can find a copy of Calibre Press' video, "Edged Weapons". That may convince you. It did me.
 
My own experience with the 21 foot rule indicates it may not even be enough. We ran the drill a while back with an instructor class and most of the attackers made 30-35 feet before a single shot was fired. The modern security holsters are great for security but not much on speed. Knives are nasty things.
 
See if you can find a copy of Calibre Press' video, "Edged Weapons". That may convince you. It did me.

I'm not saying I don't believe, it's just the first I ever heard of it. But now I see it's old news.

I am a little quicker than 1.5 seconds draw and shoot. But that is knowing I am drawing to compete and not a last minute realization the I have to defend my life. Two totally different situations.....I know. I like the run then shoot option.
 
I have heard that 21 feet was based on the lenght of the room the demonstration was performed in. The actual distance is wider, like the previous poster alluded.
OZ
 
Remember that this is a uniformed officer with a duty rig on the OUTSIDE of his clothes.
Wonder what the numbers are for a tucked in shirt IWB or pocket carried arm, etc?
 
Mas Ayoob discussed this at length some years ago and I believe he used it in his capacity in providing expert testimony in a precedent setting case.

One dynamic that enters into it that the common non-firearm type in-duh-viduals do not realize, is that people struck by pistol bullets such as 9mm's do not rise up and get flung back 5 feet, instantly dead, like they do on TV and in the movies. A psycho or druggie with a knife, a temper, and an attitude can do a lot of carving in a short time before he bleeds out if the brain or spine isn't hit . . .
 
Lesse now:
1. Tueller developed the drill while working at Gunsite, the drill was developed on a range because he was wondering about the practicality of knife vs gun. Probably with "range holsters". The average time I've observed from start to first round with regular (not high retention) duty type holsters is in the 1.5-1.75 range. And this is when KNOWING there was going to be a shooting situation.

2. The knife wielder can run forwards much faster than you can run backwards. And, as noted, a highly motivated individual is going to go much faster than Tuellers test subjects. The average time in a class I attended was 1.38 seconds for 7 yards.

3. Bear in mind the knife wielder isn't going to do a double back flip, kick twice and expire just beause they're shot, regardless of caliber. CNS hit excepted.
 
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There are a number of videos on YouTube demonstrating just how quickly an assailant armed with a bladed weapon can inflict damage from 21 feet away.
 
There was an story floating around a while back that knives were one of the reasons the Hong Kong Police stuck with 38/200 for so long. In their environment an armed attacker had the drop and was likely using a knife from close range. In that situation they felt caliber was irrelevant so why not stick with the 38/200.
 
1.5 seconds would be the most time needed for an active knife wielder to get to you at 21 feet.

It sounds strange, but we were trained to respond to a knife attack by falling on our back and fending off the assailant with your feet and legs, all the while drawing and then shooting him right out of his shoes. Yes, if he's good you will still probably get cut but it would be mostly confined to your lower legs; if you stay on your feet and try to meet it like that, your face, arms, neck and torso are in easy reach.

We practiced it with some dummy knives and pistols and it is a viable alternative; not pretty by any means but it can get you through it.
 
One of the better discussions of the Tueller DRILL that I've seen. It's an experiment, not a rule. As others have stated, 21 feet may be a little late for a draw. When my LFI-1 class did the experiment (which you can not only reproduce in court, but maybe even get the jurors to do in the jury room), almost everyone, including a temporarily disabled person, beat 1.5 seconds. Now compare that to the time it takes you to react to a signal, draw and fire. That's more than 1.5 seconds for some of us.

Cjw3's method sounds like an excellent general response. Given an obstacle like a car or table, I might opt for running behind that if there was enough distance from my attacker to do it, meanwhile drawing. But who ever got attacked from 21 feet? Bottom line is that counting on a gun in the case of a knife attack is weak. A gun does NOT trump a knife when you're all cut up before you even get the thing out. Cjw3's response sounds like a good one for a man with a gun, and there is other training available in CQ combat.

Anyone who pulls a knife on you should be shot repeatedly until he is on the ground, but that's only if you're lucky enough to be able to do so.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI7_TTR6b1Q[/ame]
 
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