21 foot rule?

[Ethang]

I had a friend that I used to shoot with at his house. He had a target rigged on a dog run. The drill was the shooter stood 21 feet from the target, facing it. the assistant, on his own start, would grab the line and run, pulling the target towards the shooter. Drawing and trying to get two good hits on the target was very challenging and that was in my IPSC days. Doing it today from a duty rig would be much worse.

that is also assuming a quick incapacitation which is not very likely with handgun rounds outside a CNS hit.

You don't win if you get good hits on the bad guy but he slices you up like a Cuisinart before he expires.

 

[oldman45]

I was trained that a knife was fatal to someone from 20 feet away.

I was also trained that DISTANCE is your friend when confronting an armed person.

But there is a great person of high intelligence always said that one should never bring a knife to a gun fight.

 

[keith44spl]

But there is a great person of high intelligence always said that one should never bring a knife to a gun fight.

Well,
When I worked in uniform I carried a palm knife behind my mag pouch...And I wan't kiddin' neither

Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[oldman45]

Well,
When I worked in uniform I carried a palm knife behind my mag pouch...And I wan't kiddin' neither

Su Amigo,
Dave

I bet you never went into a gun confrontation with a drawn knife either.

 

[keith44spl]

I bet you never went into a gun confrontation with a drawn knife either.

No Sir...


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[Kanewpadle]

The 21 foot rule is not actually a rule. It's a guideline.

 

[Out West]

I think the 21 foot drill serves a bigger purpose than preparation for attack from a knife. In short, a gun does not make you invincible. If your situational awareness doesn't extend beyond your own personal space, you can be victimized as easily as the unarmed citizen.

Out
West

 

[roarindan]

Guess none of youse folks ever watched "Deputy U.S. Marshal Raylan Givens". I saw him outdraw a guy that had his hand on his gun across the table.

 

[USAF385]

21 ft in 1.5 seconds is more than doable.

I've tested this myself. Well.. I tested to see how long it took me to move 21 feet. 1.20 seconds. The thing is I started at the ready... Like I was running a race, crouched down ready to go. Still, 21 feet in 1.5 seconds is possible especially if the knife is already in the hand.

As stated by others, it would be hard to actually stop someone with a knife unless you had great shot placement. I'm a 230 lb guy who was moving at roughly 13 mph by the time I got to 21 feet. I'm going to keep moving forward even after being shot, and if I'm mad enough to be coming after you with a knife I'd probably still be in a stabby mood.

 

[Kanewpadle]

21 ft in 1.5 seconds is more than doable.

I've tested this myself. Well.. I tested to see how long it took me to move 21 feet. 1.20 seconds. The thing is I started at the ready... Like I was running a race, crouched down ready to go. Still, 21 feet in 1.5 seconds is possible especially if the knife is already in the hand.

As stated by others, it would be hard to actually stop someone with a knife unless you had great shot placement. I'm a 230 lb guy who was moving at roughly 13 mph by the time I got to 21 feet. I'm going to keep moving forward even after being shot, and if I'm mad enough to be coming after you with a knife I'd probably still be in a stabby mood.

Good point. That's why moving AND shooting is important.

Some don't realize just how unprepared they are until exposed to something like the Tueller drill.

Most if not all state required CCW classes don't teach this. And some states don't require a class at all.

I think some have a false sense of security in thinking they are prepared.

 

[P&R Fan]

I was first trained in using the ASP baton about 20 years ago. They talked about this and did a demonstration. They had two participants, a young police officer in uniform with his duty gun, and an attacker, me. They gave me a rubber knife and told me to start running and he would draw (First they asked if I wanted to personally check his pistol to make sure it's unloaded....well, duuhh, yes, I do). I'm not the fastest guy, and I really figured he'd be snapping it on me by the time I was about 3 feet away. Nope, if the knife hadn't been rubber it would have been in his chest before the gun was fully out of his holster. That convinced me.

 

[Big Cholla]

I have heard that 21 feet was based on the lenght of the room the demonstration was performed in. The actual distance is wider, like the previous poster alluded.
OZ

No it wasn't. I know Dennis Tueller and have visited with him several times. It was based on young cadet officers drawing a S & W revolver from a duty holster with Level 2 Retention and getting a shot off before a person with a rubber practice knife could fake stab them with the knife. The AVERAGE distance for these young cadets was 21 ft. Dennis was the Sgt. in charge of range training at the time.

Using blanks in the revolver a cadet faced down range. Another cadet with the rubber training knife was at the off-side of the cadet with the handgun holstered about 90 deg. to the line of fire. The cadet with the handgun was to draw and fire as quickly as possible after seeing the cadet with the knife start to move. As it worked out, at distances under 21 ft. on the average, the drawing cadet was touched with the rubber knife before shooting. The conclusion was that under those conditions, an offensive person with a cutting instrument would be able to do great bodily harm ON THE AVERAGE at any distance under 21 ft. There would be exceptions to this situation.

Those cadets did not move while trying to draw and fire. Cadets trained to move, draw and fire did better with some practice. Cadets with exceptional reaction time obviously did better.. ......... About this time, it became common for us Instructors to teach students to develop their own "Tueller" distance and document it for future use if required in a court setting. One's "Personal Tueller Distance" should be developed on the range under the conditions that one carries a concealed firearm and with the firearm that is commonly carried. Use the same technique that Sgt. Tueller's cadets did; face down range, draw and fire when the 'adversary' starts toward you from the off side. Keep increasing the distance until the 'adversary' can no longer touch you with the practice knife. Video tape this procedure and you have documented "your" Tueller distance. Obviously, the practice 'adversary' should not be other than an 'average' person in physical ability.

So there is nothing sacrosanct about "21 ft.". It was a distance developed under certain parameters that may or may not apply to yourself. My personal "Tueller" distance has varied over my professional life from 18 ft. in uniform and with duty holster to 26 ft. as an older person in a light coat carrying concealed. Without doing the range work in documentation, the average person needs to be a little careful about dealing with the aftermath of a righteous shooting of another with a knife and then going to court claiming "he was within 21 ft. and advancing". ............ Big Cholla

 

[ElToro]

why you think cops always blast knife wielders ?

not only the 21 foot deal but a knife or ice pick will generally zip right through body armor. body armor is designed to stop bullets, not knives

 

[oldman45]

My two cents here:

In the discussed tests and training, the officer knows in advance that he is about to be attacked by a knife weiding person. In the real world, perception and reaction for an unexpected event will be longer for the officer than in field training..

There is also the additional factor that a perp is already knows to what exent he is willing to go to inflict injury. The officer never knows what that extent may be. In training, the attacker is going to stop with the initial contact and not continue to stab repeatedly.

My advice, FWIW, if a knife is pulled, shoot quick. Distance evaporates rapidly.

 

[yaktamer]

See if you can find a copy of Calibre Press' video, "Edged Weapons". That may convince you. It did me.

They showed this to us when I went through the academy. Scary stuff. So much so that I figured if I ever had someone come at me with a knife I'd start shooting when they got within about a half mile.

 

[Evil Dog]

Some situations just beg for a shotgun.

 

[Texas Star]

Keep in mind that this past week, a Navy SEAL knifed a Somali pirate when boarding the pirated vessel. We don't yet know why he didn't just shoot him. Maybe a shot might have injured others.

I think we have here one reason why the .38 Long Colt was so ineffective in the Phillipines around 1900. A bolo-wielding savage attacking at close range wouldn't be stopped unless the CNS was hit, although the .45 worked better than a 38. Also, some of those guys were hyped up on weed and religious fervor. (Islamic) Same for the British experience in India.

I have written extensively for knife magazines for about 30 years and interviewed many custom knife makers. Both the Randall shop and the late G.W. Stone had letters from our troops who had literally beheaded enemy soldiers with one swipe fronm a seven or eight inch-bladed Randall Model One and the Stone equivalent Model A. Blade thickness is about a quarter inch.

I was in college, living with my mother,when her cat chased a stray bird into the house. (Mother was watching with the back screen door open, and the bird flew in.)

Not being able to do much else, I swiped at the bird as it ran across a room.I was using a Stone Model A, and the bird was literally split in half with one swipe. It was a little scary. That blow would have done very serious damage to a human, I'm sure.

However, the Roman Army decided that the thrust was much more deadly on average, and used their swords accordingly, when possible. The British decided the same after studying sword wounds after Waterloo.

If a decent knifeman gets you with a skilled thrust, you are in deep trouble. But a slash may also be incapacitating.
I once lunched with Col. Rex Applegate, who reminded me of the "hand cuts" advocated in his training of OSS agents. He was training men (and maybe a few women) to kill with knives, and some did just that, in Nazi-occupied France.

If someone pulls a knife on me, I'll draw, and if he even looks like he's moving toward me, we're going to see a "field test" of stopping power for whatever load I'm carrying in my gun! If the intent is a holdup or any incident in which the person with the knife has clear hostile intent (as distinguished from a clumsy drunk or someone who I might be able to talk out of using the knife, I'm shooting.
And the gun is coming out as soon as I see the knife.

Keep in mind that many shopping malls have cameras that may record what you do. That can be used for or against you, depending on what seems to occur on camera. And cop cars now have cameras, as you guys surely know.

T-Star