4516-1 vs 1911 ??

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Doc1500

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First I apologize for opening up the can of worms that's about to happen.
I have a 4516-1, my EDC
Love it , love it , shoot it well.
I have always been intrigued by the history of the 1911 platform. I have never shot one, but I am considering to purchase one just because of the history.
To The Experts with knowledge and have shot the 4516-1 and the 1911,
With a price range between $750 and $1,000
What 1911 45 ACP platform would you put on par with the 4516-1 All Things Considered ???
 
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There all kinds of experts here but just as an experienced, gun toting American, I cannot imagine putting any 1911 "on a par" with a 4516.

First, you're talking apples and oranges, TDA versus SA.

Second, you have a decocker on the 4516, which I think is one of the finest concepts anyone ever came up with for an automatic pistol.

Those two items alone would keep me from a 1911 but anyone who has ever read my posts knows I generally dislike the 1911 platform. It had its time and place and did its job but a stainless steel, traditional double action pistol is just far superior.

Many still buy them, love them, carry them every day. More power to those folks, we just agree to disagree.

So, for history, that's different. Developed by John Moses Browning for the US Army pistol trials a century ago and serving in two World Wars and any number of lesser but still mighty deadly conflicts, it has passed the test of time with flying colors. The history of the 1911 in the so-called "Gangster Era" of the Roaring 20s is legendary. Police, outlaws, everyone had "45s". When you say "45" that's the gun you mean as a historical reference.

Buying a 1911 for its history and as a sentimental item, a classic of a bygone era, that's just different, very personal, and I never comment on "just because" emotional purchases. We all do that.
 
Yoda makes good points. I gotta agree that carrying cocked and locked is my idea of an accident waiting to happen, even though millions have carried them that way without incident. And I know about the grip safety and keeping your fingers off the trigger, etc.; but I've never been comfortable with the idea of a 1911, or BHP for that matter, as a carry gun.
I much prefer 3rd generation Smiths (CS9, 6906, 4513TSW, CS45), my Beretta PX4compact in 9 (or 40), and occasionally a Sig P6 or Sig 250 in 9 or 40.

That said I can more than understand wanting one "just because of the history;" just like I had to have a P08 just because of the history.
So I got one and it sat in the safe, got taken out maybe once a year and I put up with a fairly crappy trigger and the fear it might break and all that would entail. I sold it after separating the emotion from the common sense and bought a new Sig 210 which I shoot a lot more and it's a really wonderful gun in every respect.

As far as getting a .45, there's a whole heap of 'em around -- from Turkey and the Philippines, Taurus, etc. that would fit the bill of having a "45." I know I look about once a week and then shake off the urge saying to myself, "My Smiths can do everything a 1911 can do and a bit more." (True Confession: I said that once too often, and about two years ago sold a S&W 1911SE [for good money] that I should have my left pinky cut off for selling. I was soooo dumb.)

You'll find a nice gun out there despite the nuttiness of the market, just keep looking.
 
I appreciate the history of the 1911 and enjoy them at the range.

But I like the 4516-1 more and would not carry a 1911 for serious purpose. The 4516-1 is far more reliable. And in my hands just as accurate. Regards 18DAI
 
Well they are both made of steel, have hammers and shoot the .45acp cartridge. After that not much......................

Size wise; an Officers Model..... short frame (6rd) and 3 1/2" barrel.


Everyone who's into guns should own or at least shoot a 1911. Like others I don't like carrying cocked and locked. I did for about 10 years until I got my first DA/SA auto a Beretta 92 Compact in 1988 and a Sig 220 .45 shortly after...... as a long time revolver shooter I had no trouble with the first DA shot and like the follow up single action trigger.

As a civilian who carries concealed; I actually like the long DA first shot in a self-defense weapon vs the short trigger on a SA or striker fired gun.
 
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There really is no comparison between a 1911 pattern pistol and a S&W 3rd gen pistol. Two very different animals. I will say that the 1911 is likely to have a better single action trigger, but there is no double action unless you find a Seecamp conversion or a ParaOrdnance LDA pistol, so no second strike capability and hammer down over a live round in the 1911 is a poor carry method. The S&W is carried hammer down, which the public views as being a safe condition.


For reliability, most 1911's are reliable, but I would have to give the nod to the S&W for best out of the box reliability, especially when the barrel is shorter than 4 1/4 inches.

Accuracy will vary from one pistol to another, but the 1911 is easier to modify for improving accuracy, but the S&W pistols are combat accurate, at least on par with that of a genuine USGI M1911-A1.


Aftermarket and replacement parts availability definitely goes to the 1911. There are few aftermarket parts for the S&W pistols, but tons of goodies and replacement parts for the 1911.


My EDC is a Model 6946, which is DAO. No one can claim that an overly light trigger caused it to discharge or be negligently discharged. A 1911 with a 3 1/2 pound super crisp trigger... nice for the range, not nice for EDC.
 
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If you really like your 4516, consider: the 1911 will have a significantly different grip angle that you may not like; and the 1911 will have a lower bore axis that may feel "scrunched".

Spoken as one who likes 1911's and instantly hates the feel of 3rd gens. It's all in your personal preference.
 
In your listed price range, no 1911 will compare to your 4516 in terms of reliability and durability. Especially if you're looking for a compact similar to the 4516. I say this as someone with 35 years of professional 1911 experience. If nothing else, don't get rid of the 4516 to pay for the 1911, you'll regret it.
 
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The third generation Smiths were designed a lot more recently than 1911 and are built tougher and designed for more modern carry as well as combat. Nothing wrong with a 1911, and my respect to Mr. Browning and history, but the S&W Third Gens are for many purposes - better guns. I have several 1911's too and enjoy shooting them. Many would disagree with me and that is their right.
 
Trooper224 said:
In your listed price range, no 1911 will compare to your 4516 in terms of reliability and durability. Especially if you're looking for a compact similar to the 4516. I say this as someone with 35 years of professional 1911 experience. If nothing else, don't get rid of the 4516 to pay for the 1911, you'll regret it.
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I will not get rid of the 4516 - 1 oh, it will probably go to the Grave with me.
 
I have carried the 4516 no dash and eventually went to a 4513 simply due to not liking the weight of the 4516. I shot both well. But I was carrying a Colt commander from the 50's as a backup and off duty for years before the DA S&W's were even on the drawing board. And after my brief sojourne with the 4516 and 4513, I went back to the 1911 platform. Cuurently I number a series 90 Defender .45 among my regular carry weapons. I still own my old 1951 commander .45 and still use it. I have long since sold my 4516 and 4513's. But due to arthritis have looked at smaller calibers like a Shorty Forty which I just purchased.
I will continue to play with S&W pistols but I have every caliber of Commander that Colt made and love that system. I still own the original commander and a couple of spares. I have the others in 38 Super, 9mm, and 30 Luger. But the .45 1911 system is still the king. So having had the guns you asked about and having used and carried them, I would always vote for the 1911 system but only if it's a Colt.
 
I carried a 1911 working law enforcement on patrol and working narcotics. It is a great weapon if you are willing to practice and master the thumb safety, you don't have time to hunt for it or fumble around when you need to shoot. I taught a course in the police academy for officers that carried a revolver that wanted to carry a 1911. But unless you to constantly practice you draw, presentation and shooting, with lots of magazine changes, you shouldn't carry a 1911.

For range time you can enjoy the best trigger of any semi-auto pistol. You still need a lot of practice with the thumb safety.

The shorter the barrel, the harder it it to make a reliable 1911.

Probably the best deal on a 1911 is the Colt Competition, it sells for about $875 in blue and about $200 more for stainless.
 
batman4706 said:
I carried a 1911 working law enforcement on patrol and working narcotics. It is a great weapon if you are willing to practice and master the thumb safety, you don't have time to hunt for it or fumble around when you need to shoot. I taught a course in the police academy for officers that carried a revolver that wanted to carry a 1911. But unless you to constantly practice you draw, presentation and shooting, with lots of magazine changes, you shouldn't carry a 1911.

For range time you can enjoy the best trigger of any semi-auto pistol. You still need a lot of practice with the thumb safety.

The shorter the barrel, the harder it it to make a reliable 1911.

Probably the best deal on a 1911 is the Colt Competition, it sells for about $875 in blue and about $200 more for stainless.
Click to expand...


Truth! With barrels shorter than 4 1/4 inches, the 1911 becomes more difficult when it comes to reliability. This is why we see short 1911's with bushingless, bull barrels and integral feed ramps. The bushingless bull barrel improves the downward angle of the chamber mouth during the feed cycle and the integral ramp eliminates the round having to bounce from the frame ramp to the chamber mouth. The S&W pistols were designed with barrels that have an integral feed ramp, thus eliminating much of the feed issues associated with rounds other than FMJ ball type.
 
All about your training and dedication to continue training.
For issued duty weapons, I carried three different 3rd Gen S&W autos over a span of 20 years (M1076, CS45, M4566 as well as approved OD carry of M4516 and M457)
I trained hard with them and my qual scores were usually either 100's or very close.
Still have a couple of them.

I still prefer a quality M1911 in .38 Super, 10mm or .45 and now in my dotage, there is no 'approved' list I'm supposed to adhere to - so more often than not, the M1911 gets the nod.
 
Two completely different platforms.
I have both, but my daily carry is the 1911.
fwiw, Walther invented the "decocker."
 
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I can recommend the Kimber Pro Carry 45 or 9mm, alloy frame and 4" barrel. I have both as well as the 4566 and 5906. I practice with them regularily and shoot revolvers as well.

As others have said keep the 4516!

Smiles,
 
I know it's out of your price range , but look at a 945 . Not the same , but a lot alike . I have several , and they shoot like you wouldn't believe . I don't know if Colt even makes a 1911 that compares with them or an 845 .
 
If I was going to carry a .45 that size, I would seriously consider the Sig P220. Mine is an older West German made gun. The alloy frame saves weight and it is absolutely reliable with any ammo I've tried. Accuracy is also top of the line.

For S&W 3rd gens, I would look at the 4513 to save some weight. I almost bought a 4513TSW several years ago at a gun show, but the guy in front of me beat me to it.
 
You will not be sorry with the 1911. It is the best 45 Auto platform ever developed.

You don't have to fumble with decocking levers and you get a brilliant, consistent trigger pull for every shot.

There are plenty of 1911s in the sub 1000 area, Springfield comes to mind.

If you get a quality 1911 running well, you'll forget all about any other 45 you have. :D
 
Trooper224 said:
In your listed price range, no 1911 will compare to your 4516 in terms of reliability and durability. Especially if you're looking for a compact similar to the 4516. I say this as someone with 35 years of professional 1911 experience. If nothing else, don't get rid of the 4516 to pay for the 1911, you'll regret it.
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I would disagree with this. Durability? An all steel 1911 is about as durable as it gets. It also has probably the most parts availability and gunsmith know-how of any pistol in history. It's super simple to work on anything you need at home too. You can get a pretty nice one for his stated max of a grand.

Reliability? Well, you need to make sure you get the right mags and such, but once you do, the 1911 is EXTREMELY reliable.

The 4516 is a nice gun. The 1911 is a legend. There's a reason for that. :D
 
cherrypointmarine said:
I know it's out of your price range , but look at a 945 . Not the same , but a lot alike . I have several , and they shoot like you wouldn't believe . I don't know if Colt even makes a 1911 that compares with them or an 845 .
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I've got a couple of 945s, and prefer them over the 1911, trigger is a little light for my taste as a defensive carry and i often have an issue with the grip safety when shooting with a two-handed hold. For those reasons, my choice would either be my 645 or SiG P220s for carry use. i have P220s in both .45 and 10mm, both steel frames so the extra weight makes them very comfortable for extended range sessions.
 
18DAI said:
"IF you get a quality 1911 running well..." Big IF. ;)
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I think this is more blown out of proportion than reality, really.

Remember, the 1911 is a platform. There are all sorts of magazines floating around, all sorts of other parts, etc.

It's not nearly as controlled a product as say, a Glock.

Every 1911 I've ever had has been reliable with good magazines. People that try to use 8 round cheapo magazines are probably the biggest culprit for "the 1911 isn't reliable" wives tales!
 
De-cock lever fumble!!??

smithra_66 said:
You will not be sorry with the 1911. It is the best 45 Auto platform ever developed.

You don't have to fumble with decocking levers and you get a brilliant, consistent trigger pull for every shot.

There are plenty of 1911s in the sub 1000 area, Springfield comes to mind.

If you get a quality 1911 running well, you'll forget all about any other 45 you have. :D
Click to expand...

I've shot 10's of thousands of rounds in competition with 45 and 9mm 1911's. I also carry and train with 4566 and 5906.

What is the "fumbling with de-cocking levers"?

As far as I know the de-cocking lever is an administrative tool used to render the firearm safe when holstering. Once the firearm is returned to D/A and holstered the de-cock lever is returned to OFF! No fumbling. If the firearm was not fired the firearm remains in D/A mode. No fumbling!

Both my Gen III's have the LEO feature that has spring loaded de-cock levers so they cannot be left ON! No fumbling!

Smiles,
 
jjfitch said:
I've shot 10's of thousands of rounds in competition with 45 and 9mm 1911's. I also carry and train with 4566 and 5906.

What is the "fumbling with de-cocking levers"?

As far as I know the de-cocking lever is an administrative tool used to render the firearm safe when holstering. Once the firearm is returned to D/A and holstered the de-cock lever is returned to OFF! No fumbling. If the firearm was not fired the firearm remains in D/A mode. No fumbling!

Both my Gen III's have the LEO feature that has spring loaded de-cock levers so they cannot be left ON! No fumbling!

Smiles,
Click to expand...

Just saying there's no need to "decock" a 1911. Its decocking lever is the trigger, after it's been emptied. Otherwise just switch the thumb safety on.
 
Probably the one big factor that gives 1911's a bad reputation for reliability is its magazine. Genuine GI magazines are almost always reliable with ball ammo. Quality civilian magazines are usually reliable with ball, hollow point, and semi-wadcutter ammo. Cheap magazines might be reliable with ball ammo, but are far more likely to cause rounds to nose dive into the feed ramp or pop up vertically and jam in the ejection port. Extra round magazines that use the standard dimension magazine body often have feed issues. That's based on my experience with 1911 for both defense and competition.


I have used both the 39-2 and the 439 for defensive carry. I never fumbled the decocker. Safety on when loading the pistol, safety off just before holstering the pistol. I see no point in carrying the TDA pistols with the safety engaged.
 
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