Agree completely. Hence my post above. The issue is finding the dot on an optic drawing from a holster if you are used to iron sights. I find that most people who have never used a red dot optic have great difficulty finding the dot at first when drawing from a holster. Some even have difficulty just from a low ready.
A CCW curiosity question
- Thread starter lrrifleman
- Start date
Agree completely. Hence my post above. The issue is finding the dot on an optic drawing from a holster if you are used to iron sights. I find that most people who have never used a red dot optic have great difficulty finding the dot at first when drawing from a holster. Some even have difficulty just from a low ready.
+1. Couldn't have said it better.
OP
After reading the responses (which I really do appreciate), I think that I need to clarify a few things.
First, my curiosity is triggered purely by observation, I'm not looking to change how I carry. I am 66, disabled, and been shooting handguns for almost 50 years. I was trained on a 1911, and use of the thumb safety is second nature. ROs tend to get a chuckle when I am shooting in a GSSF match and I sweep the thumb safety off! I am trying to learn how to use an RDS, but at this point in my life, I severely doubt that I would trust my life to an RDS.
I tend to be observant, and I like to both listen to what people have to say and read. When I am driving a school bus and see an SRO carrying a pistol with an RDS, I just have to wonder. Reading some of the other forums, it seems everyone needs an RDS and a WML on their EDC. Sometimes, what I see and hear leaves me wondering what I have missed.
Unless I am pocket carrying a P365, my P365 has a thumb safety. (Yes, I currently have 2: my 9mm has the thumb safety while the 380 is naked!) I have a P320 slide, along with a 9mm X slide and 380 slide that wear an RDS, but I only use them for competition. For me, I feel that an RDS would be a handicap.
My mindset may be a little twisted. I figure that any predator/vermin that targets a disabled person has already got me at a disadvantage, so I don't need to be fair and give them a "fair chance"! When the threat becomes obvious, I will go fully defensive.
First, my curiosity is triggered purely by observation, I'm not looking to change how I carry. I am 66, disabled, and been shooting handguns for almost 50 years. I was trained on a 1911, and use of the thumb safety is second nature. ROs tend to get a chuckle when I am shooting in a GSSF match and I sweep the thumb safety off! I am trying to learn how to use an RDS, but at this point in my life, I severely doubt that I would trust my life to an RDS.
I tend to be observant, and I like to both listen to what people have to say and read. When I am driving a school bus and see an SRO carrying a pistol with an RDS, I just have to wonder. Reading some of the other forums, it seems everyone needs an RDS and a WML on their EDC. Sometimes, what I see and hear leaves me wondering what I have missed.
Unless I am pocket carrying a P365, my P365 has a thumb safety. (Yes, I currently have 2: my 9mm has the thumb safety while the 380 is naked!) I have a P320 slide, along with a 9mm X slide and 380 slide that wear an RDS, but I only use them for competition. For me, I feel that an RDS would be a handicap.
My mindset may be a little twisted. I figure that any predator/vermin that targets a disabled person has already got me at a disadvantage, so I don't need to be fair and give them a "fair chance"! When the threat becomes obvious, I will go fully defensive.
I was always taught to grab the front sight with my vision and bring that view to the target. Then 5 years ago I had my lenses replaced because of cataracts. Everything changed. Needed to shoot with both eyes open. I gravitated to red dots first for the target plinkers, my 617 and Single-Ten, then my 10-22 and M&P15. On the one semi I sometimes carry, my 365XL, the Holosun 507K X2 with the big circle dot grabs the edge of my vision and brings it on target. Laser grips went on my 637 and GP-100, but both usually live as dark household guns. My other carry is my S&W mdl. 38 snub, which is strictly a get-off-me close up DA gun. No sights, grab and point at the area which is usually large enough.
I like what technology has brought to the shooting community over the years.
I like what technology has brought to the shooting community over the years.
As occasionally happens, I am strongly on both sides of this issue. I myself am a bit leery of battery-powered devices, and don't particularly care to add bulk to my handgun. I am also VERY concerned about losing the dot and not even knowing where to look for it. I have seen this happen to others.
OTOH, one club member here has used a passive red dot for quite a while and swears by it. He has spent many hours at home practicing his draw. No ammo expenditure, just a LOT of draws. He has found that when he looks at something, the dot is on it.
I believe that an old dog can learn new tricks. Maybe not THIS old dog (78), but that's a personal problem.
I see nothing wrong with getting another gun, and practicing a lot with red dot sights. If and when you think that you can perform better with it and that it is sufficiently reliable, then you'll know what to do. Until then, of course, you won't give up what already works.
That's my reaction to your question.
OTOH, one club member here has used a passive red dot for quite a while and swears by it. He has spent many hours at home practicing his draw. No ammo expenditure, just a LOT of draws. He has found that when he looks at something, the dot is on it.
I believe that an old dog can learn new tricks. Maybe not THIS old dog (78), but that's a personal problem.
I see nothing wrong with getting another gun, and practicing a lot with red dot sights. If and when you think that you can perform better with it and that it is sufficiently reliable, then you'll know what to do. Until then, of course, you won't give up what already works.
That's my reaction to your question.
If you've trained extensively with iron sights, going to the dot is going to involve work. Aging eyes drove me to try it* after using RDSs on long guns since the early 80's. I tried it initially with an optic mount in the rear sight dovetail and found with some pratice there was no significant difference between good shot times from iron sights. With the proof of concept done, I had a spare slide milled for a lower optic mount.
So, what I learned was:
Iron sights you can see through the RDS are mandatory. Not only in case the battery dies, but until you get grooved in, it's entirely possible to have the irons on target, but not be able to see the dot.
You need to learn to lift the gun up to your eye level. The gun clears the holster, your hands join up and then LIFT! If the gun is a bit closer than fully extended arms, you pick up the dot faster. Ya gotta practice until you see that dot right away every time.
I've never fired tighter 25 yard groups, even with younger eyes. OK, that distance isn't likely in a defensive shooting, but it has happened. Sight alignment doesn't exist, where the dot is, the bullet will be-unless you yank the trigger.
The advantage in reduced light is massive. Even if you've got tritium inserts in your iron sights. One thing I did notice was that on automatic brightness settings, if you go into pitch dark (search a building), either the thing shuts down or goes to night vision brightness settings. Need to go to manual brightness control in that event. The auto setting was a bit brighter than ideal for me in daylight, works well in reduced light. Esp. with a gun mounted light.
The additional height to the gun may make concealing a full size gun difficult. Cross draw may be your solution.
*In my decrepitude, I find I see stainless front sights-and sights with the orange inserts- better than plain black sights.
So, what I learned was:
Iron sights you can see through the RDS are mandatory. Not only in case the battery dies, but until you get grooved in, it's entirely possible to have the irons on target, but not be able to see the dot.
You need to learn to lift the gun up to your eye level. The gun clears the holster, your hands join up and then LIFT! If the gun is a bit closer than fully extended arms, you pick up the dot faster. Ya gotta practice until you see that dot right away every time.
I've never fired tighter 25 yard groups, even with younger eyes. OK, that distance isn't likely in a defensive shooting, but it has happened. Sight alignment doesn't exist, where the dot is, the bullet will be-unless you yank the trigger.
The advantage in reduced light is massive. Even if you've got tritium inserts in your iron sights. One thing I did notice was that on automatic brightness settings, if you go into pitch dark (search a building), either the thing shuts down or goes to night vision brightness settings. Need to go to manual brightness control in that event. The auto setting was a bit brighter than ideal for me in daylight, works well in reduced light. Esp. with a gun mounted light.
The additional height to the gun may make concealing a full size gun difficult. Cross draw may be your solution.
*In my decrepitude, I find I see stainless front sights-and sights with the orange inserts- better than plain black sights.
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AJ
US Veteran
Anything with an optic on it just seems to bulky for a real concealed carry weapon to me unless you live in the frozen wastes of the North or are as big as a bear. Here in t-shirt and shorts land about the only way I can figure to carry a concealed weapon with optics is in a "man purse" or a back pack.
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Doug M.
Member
1) Folks who have trained a lot in the Gunsite (front sight, press) style will not find the transition easy without a lot of work.
2) If you have shot that way all your life AND your eyes cooperate, the juice is likely not worth the squeeze. For me, my eyes argued for the change.
3) If you do your research and buy a quality RDS, battery life and other risks of failure under bad conditions are not significantly different than any other mechanical device.
4) With proper BUIS the worst that will happen is that you either transition to the irons, or you use the RDS as a ghost ring. It might seem odd on a pistol, but it works.
5) I do not use RDS on my pocket carried G33 and 42; they have XS Big Dots. I suspect that RDS and pockets is a fail for most of the population. However, I do have quality (Dale Fricke) holsters for my 4" Shield w/RDS and my M17 (with butt shortened to G19 size) with RDS. I rarely have any trouble dressing around them, but I'm decent sized (in my prime 6'1+, 225, with a 52 coat and 37 trousers) and put a priority on being armed. I admit I will never make the front page of Esquire.
2) If you have shot that way all your life AND your eyes cooperate, the juice is likely not worth the squeeze. For me, my eyes argued for the change.
3) If you do your research and buy a quality RDS, battery life and other risks of failure under bad conditions are not significantly different than any other mechanical device.
4) With proper BUIS the worst that will happen is that you either transition to the irons, or you use the RDS as a ghost ring. It might seem odd on a pistol, but it works.
5) I do not use RDS on my pocket carried G33 and 42; they have XS Big Dots. I suspect that RDS and pockets is a fail for most of the population. However, I do have quality (Dale Fricke) holsters for my 4" Shield w/RDS and my M17 (with butt shortened to G19 size) with RDS. I rarely have any trouble dressing around them, but I'm decent sized (in my prime 6'1+, 225, with a 52 coat and 37 trousers) and put a priority on being armed. I admit I will never make the front page of Esquire.
That’s where I’m at. I’m sticking with iron sights but I’ve known some younger LEO’s that are pretty darn good with RDS. It’s progress, but I’ve reached a point (now that I’m retired) that I’m not upgrading anymore. I’ll run what I brung but I have nothing against RDS for those that want to invest the time and ammo to be comfortable with them.
Model 15-4ever
Member
I saw this thread and immediately made another batch of popcorn. 
First thing: Don't equate the pistol RDS with a shoulder arm with an RDS. You don't those 4 points of contact with a pistol, so it's not an easily acquired aiming point. Especially when you have a draw and aim a handgun quickly, udner stress, while both you and the target are moving.
Been using RDS on pistols for 30+ years. Great invention for target shooting and hunting. As far as accuracy goes, they are a bonus, provided you don't have an astigmatism. As eyes age, that happens, and the red dot becomes some kind of fuzzy barbell or asteroid with a tail. At age 64, I shoot irons as well as red dots at this point.
For carry guns, stupidest idea ever.
First thing: Don't equate the self-defense use of a pistol RDS with a shoulder arm with an RDS. You don't have those 4 points of contact with a pistol, so it's not an easily acquired aiming point. Especially when you have a draw and aim a handgun quickly, under stress, while both you and the target are moving.
If all your defensive engagements are at 25 yards and beyond, RDS is probably a great thing. But then you really should be using a shoulder weapon, and/or friends with shoulder weapons, and/or bodyguards.
Over 75% of LE shootings happen within 20 feet, and 50% within 10 feet. Citizen-involved shootings average even less than that. The RDS doesn't do a darn thing for you at those distances, except make you:
1. Slower,
2. Less accurate, and
3. Confused by the presence of TWO sighting systems and/or a dot you can't find
Many lethal encounters occur in diminished light or indoors. The tints that many RDS have on them - to allow you to see the dot and aim outdoors in bright light - are a real hinderance indoors and diminished light.
In a lethal encounter your main concern will be TIME. You cannot afford to be looking for something you can't find, or isn't there to begin with. The front sight on your handgun is always there, always visible in your peripheral or direct vision, and immediately available without hoping it appears.
The learning curve on the RDS is long, and the net result at close range is still not as satisfactory as hi-biz irons.
I haven't even touched on bulk, practical reliability (lens crud, battery failure, electronic failure), and weapon handling issues. All legitimate concerns and they are negative.
If a miniature glowing front sight dot could be made, well that would be something practical. As is, the RDS is just not ready for prime-time concealed carry, for 95% of potential users.
PS. In before, "Major LE agencies are all adopting it". Well, I the primary firearms instructor for one of those "major LE agencies" for many moons. The entire driver of RDS pistol issue is "qualifying" recruits with the least amount of time and ammo. Qualification is merely a legal standard, which is not the same thing being proficient. If you have to teach someone to hit a large piece of paper or cardboard at 15 or 25 yards, it's easier and cheaper with an RDS than irons.
Flame on, people! Been at this business for a long time and have tested the hell out of it.
First thing: Don't equate the pistol RDS with a shoulder arm with an RDS. You don't those 4 points of contact with a pistol, so it's not an easily acquired aiming point. Especially when you have a draw and aim a handgun quickly, udner stress, while both you and the target are moving.
Been using RDS on pistols for 30+ years. Great invention for target shooting and hunting. As far as accuracy goes, they are a bonus, provided you don't have an astigmatism. As eyes age, that happens, and the red dot becomes some kind of fuzzy barbell or asteroid with a tail. At age 64, I shoot irons as well as red dots at this point.
For carry guns, stupidest idea ever.
First thing: Don't equate the self-defense use of a pistol RDS with a shoulder arm with an RDS. You don't have those 4 points of contact with a pistol, so it's not an easily acquired aiming point. Especially when you have a draw and aim a handgun quickly, under stress, while both you and the target are moving.
If all your defensive engagements are at 25 yards and beyond, RDS is probably a great thing. But then you really should be using a shoulder weapon, and/or friends with shoulder weapons, and/or bodyguards.
Over 75% of LE shootings happen within 20 feet, and 50% within 10 feet. Citizen-involved shootings average even less than that. The RDS doesn't do a darn thing for you at those distances, except make you:
1. Slower,
2. Less accurate, and
3. Confused by the presence of TWO sighting systems and/or a dot you can't find
Many lethal encounters occur in diminished light or indoors. The tints that many RDS have on them - to allow you to see the dot and aim outdoors in bright light - are a real hinderance indoors and diminished light.
In a lethal encounter your main concern will be TIME. You cannot afford to be looking for something you can't find, or isn't there to begin with. The front sight on your handgun is always there, always visible in your peripheral or direct vision, and immediately available without hoping it appears.
The learning curve on the RDS is long, and the net result at close range is still not as satisfactory as hi-biz irons.
I haven't even touched on bulk, practical reliability (lens crud, battery failure, electronic failure), and weapon handling issues. All legitimate concerns and they are negative.
If a miniature glowing front sight dot could be made, well that would be something practical. As is, the RDS is just not ready for prime-time concealed carry, for 95% of potential users.
PS. In before, "Major LE agencies are all adopting it". Well, I the primary firearms instructor for one of those "major LE agencies" for many moons. The entire driver of RDS pistol issue is "qualifying" recruits with the least amount of time and ammo. Qualification is merely a legal standard, which is not the same thing being proficient. If you have to teach someone to hit a large piece of paper or cardboard at 15 or 25 yards, it's easier and cheaper with an RDS than irons.
Flame on, people! Been at this business for a long time and have tested the hell out of it.
I am of like mindset. In that extra few moments of trying to find the dot, and get the dot on the target....I've already been able to trigger-off a shot or two with 'front-sight, PRESS'.
Where they come into their own is with distance-shooting. Hunting, silhouette, Elmer Keith Memorial Blasting, etc.
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I believe that the RDS system is probably better overall, especially in the accuracy department.
However, I don't feel that I have enough time left, with the amount of shooting I do, for it to catch up to whatever ability I have with open sights.
If I was just starting out, I think that would be the way to go.
However, I don't feel that I have enough time left, with the amount of shooting I do, for it to catch up to whatever ability I have with open sights.
If I was just starting out, I think that would be the way to go.
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Did not read every post completely but saw no mentioned of fixed tritium sights? Have them on 5-6 of my 1911s and old fashioned King Tappan’s on couple others. My CCW LW Commander has tritiums and Crimson Trace laser grips. Very good for “ point shooting”. Reasoning is in case of midnight break in, awoken suddenly, just enough time to grab Commander and point.
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i have an optics-ready slide and a compact red dot sight, just haven't had time to put the two together and try them out. 
But I've trained with two local instructors who both told us the same thing at two different locations and times - the red dot transition takes time and there is the cost and effort to change multiple sidearms over to the new system. In their considered opinion, for carry purposes it would be an "all or nothing" proposition, which I certainly understand (they are both LE and official trainers for same).
But I've trained with two local instructors who both told us the same thing at two different locations and times - the red dot transition takes time and there is the cost and effort to change multiple sidearms over to the new system. In their considered opinion, for carry purposes it would be an "all or nothing" proposition, which I certainly understand (they are both LE and official trainers for same).
I started learning to shot at 6 years of age . The first 2 handgun's I bought when 21 was an old 5" 1911 and a new DW 15-2 357 mag revolver with a 4" and 8" barrel shroud sets . I enjoyed the 1911 and hunted with the DW and 8" barrel . When Ultra Dot began selling dot optics I added a Beuhler base and 1" rings so I could place bullets on target with better control at longer yardage .
I have 15 years wearing trifocal glass and have been right hand left eye shooter for as long as I remember . I used a Flash Sight Picture "siming style for shorter yardage going back to about '78 where a pro shooter explaned how to be faster with good control at shorter yardage with this style .
Thru the years I have found I stopped any sight focus for shots under 15 yards as I can see my slide in my peripheral vision to know **** well centered so keep the focus on your target or threat for defensive needs . . My 15 yards targets are 10" and 9x15 AR500 silhouettes . 25 yards to 40 yards I do use a bit more sight flash but my sights are not night sights just the basic . Gold bead on my 1911 commander , white dots with the rears blacked out black front changed to a brite green dot . My newest pistol has a green fiber front sight thats easy to use after lacking out the rear red fiber rods .
If you think you need Night Sights you will find out when its dark you also need a hand held light or a gun light if yu have to draw and once the light is on the sight type on your handgun does not matter as basic black show up in the down range lighted are very well . But if your handgun come with NS well good for you maybe .
Dot optics do have a learning curve But if you have been taught at least some version of Col. Jeff Cooper's - Flash Sight Picture that is still taught at Gunsite Academy and others . Once you have a good understanding of this style of threat focus dot optic become a natural quickly But start with a dot optic on a 22lr fun gun not your carry handgun . There are time when hunting hogs I can't say if I see my ultra dot and its 2moa dot or not but a dot optic will allow me to make good heart lung shots at 100 yards from some kind of rest .
How do you think your skill would be with NO Sights ?
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3DQTcyYdE[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZvmzArslgs[/ame]
Grayman Point shooting in the dark could be a very bad choice as family member's have been killed doing that type of hd shooting ,
I have 15 years wearing trifocal glass and have been right hand left eye shooter for as long as I remember . I used a Flash Sight Picture "siming style for shorter yardage going back to about '78 where a pro shooter explaned how to be faster with good control at shorter yardage with this style .
Thru the years I have found I stopped any sight focus for shots under 15 yards as I can see my slide in my peripheral vision to know **** well centered so keep the focus on your target or threat for defensive needs . . My 15 yards targets are 10" and 9x15 AR500 silhouettes . 25 yards to 40 yards I do use a bit more sight flash but my sights are not night sights just the basic . Gold bead on my 1911 commander , white dots with the rears blacked out black front changed to a brite green dot . My newest pistol has a green fiber front sight thats easy to use after lacking out the rear red fiber rods .
If you think you need Night Sights you will find out when its dark you also need a hand held light or a gun light if yu have to draw and once the light is on the sight type on your handgun does not matter as basic black show up in the down range lighted are very well . But if your handgun come with NS well good for you maybe .
Dot optics do have a learning curve But if you have been taught at least some version of Col. Jeff Cooper's - Flash Sight Picture that is still taught at Gunsite Academy and others . Once you have a good understanding of this style of threat focus dot optic become a natural quickly But start with a dot optic on a 22lr fun gun not your carry handgun . There are time when hunting hogs I can't say if I see my ultra dot and its 2moa dot or not but a dot optic will allow me to make good heart lung shots at 100 yards from some kind of rest .
How do you think your skill would be with NO Sights ?
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3DQTcyYdE[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZvmzArslgs[/ame]
Grayman Point shooting in the dark could be a very bad choice as family member's have been killed doing that type of hd shooting ,
AJ
US Veteran
I do have a couple of scopes mounted on rifles. I would prefer to shoot irns on them, but eyes aren't what they use to be. Before the eyes started going, I was comfortable using irons out to 500 yards. Would not care to use a rifle in the house for home defense. Much prefer a handgun or a shotgun indoors with no optics or lights.
Super Trucker
Member
Spend time with an RDS and you will see all the flaws in your post.
First it takes 5 minutes to change a battery once a year (mine have multi year battery life but for a dollar I change the battery yearly to not have to worry about that being a problem).
Next on the off chance the RDS does die, you should still have sights to fall back on.
What is this switch you are imaging? My Trijicon RDS products have no switch, they are on 24/7.
What is this bulky sight to snag you are imagining? I occasionally pocket carry a shield with an RMRcc and always carry a full size M&P with an RMR and weapon light, I've not had snag issues.
AJ
US Veteran
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