A poll on EDC pistols: sights

[petepeterson]

I'm a little surprised that RDS has the percentage it does. Impressive.
Irons for me, but only because I don't feel the slight advantage to RDS would be worth the time, effort, ad expense at this point of my life. If I was 30, I would be all in.

 

[AJ]

I'm a little surprised that RDS has the percentage it does. Impressive.
Irons for me, but only because I don't feel the slight advantage to RDS would be worth the time, effort, ad expense at this point of my life. If I was 30, I would be all in.

You are correct, Sir. Guess there are a lot of "Old Geezers" on the forum...On a duty handgun in a belt holster I think they have a place. As a concealed weapon sight, I feel they are to hard to hide (to bulky).

If I was 30 there are lots of new stuff that I might try to see if it works for me.

 

[A10]

Folks tend to use what they learned on. For me it's irons. For my grandson it's RDS.

Shoot what you are comfortable with, and practice a lot!

 

[Gamecock]

I think there is some bleed over from the LEO/military. We often see advise that is good for them, but isn't relevant to armed civilians.

Gamecock is not going to shoot at an assailant at 20 yards. LEO/military might need to.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

So many likes made I, and all on "iron sighs".

Anything hanging off a concealed carry, self-defense weapon makes it that much more difficult to conceal and the small guns that I conceal would be ruined with devices on them.

Fe

If you can interpret that good job!!!

 

[326MOD10]

I think there is some bleed over from the LEO/military. We often see advise that is good for them, but isn't relevant to armed civilians.

Gamecock is not going to shoot at an assailant at 20 yards. LEO/military might need to.

How long is a Walmart aisle from front of store to the back. So you are in the back of the store and have a chance to stop some carnage, do you run out the back or do you take that chance?

My point being never say never.

And I am no longer active LEO.

On the topic of the poll, I carry both. I have recently transitioned to a dot sight on my main carry handgun but do not carry it all the time. For instance the handgun itself had an issue and I had to return it for repairs.

The training with the dot has actually made me correct some drawing errors and the handgun without the RDS now comes on line much quicker.

Hesitant to try it but don't sell it short just because you don't want to invest the effort and are set in your ways.

But bottom line is the choice is yours.

 

[Echo40]

Iron Sights, 3-Dot, preferably with Fiber Optic/Tritium rods installed for optimal visibility under all lighting conditions. Otherwise, I use phosphorescent paint for guns with fixed sights.

 

[AJ]

How long is a Walmart aisle from front of store to the back. So you are in the back of the store and have a chance to stop some carnage, do you run out the back or do you take that chance?

If you are shooting from the back to the front of a Walmart store that changes things in my estimation. Takes you from the realm of self defense to"the defense of others". That is what was called a drive aisle and is probably 200+ feet. 30+ years ago I would have taken that shot with irons, today "old shakey jake" would not.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Ah, the now famous 40 yard food court shooting brings up some changes in training. 50 years ago I had to qualify on a 50 yd. Course 12 rounds, 6 prone, 6 standing strong side barricade. Single action allowed at 50 only. DAO the rest of the course. Then run to the 25, 18 kneeling barricade, strong, top & weak side. Then walk to the other stages 60 rounds total, all timed including reloads.

Ten or so years later basically the same with no running. But that was at an instructors school. Regular police academy training and qualification was 25 and in. I worked on two different academy ranges one had 50 yd. capacity, still the required course was 25. This was now the state standard. The new academy range was designed as 25 only.

I don't know what caused the change in the standards deemed by the State Police Training Commission but there it is.

 

[Gamecock]

So you are in the back of the store and have a chance to stop some carnage, do you run out the back or do you take that chance?

Out the back. Carry permit doesn't make me LEO. I have no duty to apprehend. No moral responsibility to intervene. Out the back and glad I got away. Walmart security is not my job.

LEO/military run towards the gunfire. I run away.

I knew a man who took the chance 40 years ago. Shot in the head. Paralyzed for life. The bank employees screamed at him not to go outside after the robber. He went anyway; he thought he was doing something good.

 

[lrrifleman]

Ahh! With the change of scenario from self-defense to defense of others, you have completely changed the panorama relative to the concealed carrier. This will probably draw criticism, but it needs to be said.

Seriously, take a long look at the targets that many of the new shooters display on the internet, and these are most likely motivated by their perception for a need to defend themselves. I'm not trying to discourage them, but the demonstrated skill set could probably translate into a marginal qualification on a Q target. This is most likely someone that SHOULDN'T consider engaging a threat "in defense of others".

Hopefully, those of us here have a stronger skill set. How many of us can shoot a fist-sized group at 7 yards? Can keep our shots in the aiming black at 25 and 50 yards on regulation Bullseye targets, or keep our shots in the K5/9 ring or better of a B27 or the old Kill/Disable police targets?

This is where we need to look at the CCW-holder's experience level. Many of us here are most likely current or retired LEOs or prior service. Marksmanship was a strongly developed survival skill. For others, we may have a long or varied past in different target shooting games. While I am prior service, I have a long and varied past in competitions. I started shooting 2700 bullseye, then IHMSA. Prior to that, Jr smallbore rifle matches. Now it is F class matches with rifles out to 1000 yards and GSSF/ ShootSig/USPSA/2700 bullseye matches.

Looking at the Walmart scenario, your CCW gives you the permission to carry in order to protect yourself and your loved ones. Your CCW is not a hunting license to allow you to play a LEO! The nice thing about having shot IHMSA, is that it showed me what I was capable of, and more importantly, what I wasn't! Would I attempt a long shot with my P365? Only if it didn't go past 50 yards! I like to think that I know my limitations and those of my equipment.

 

[326MOD10]

Nobody said anything about going on a hunting expedition and my state's CCW doesn't limit who I can protect. But I am not going to wait until the active shooter has got on top of me before I defend myself in such a scenario.

I don't know about you guys but my outrunning a speeding bullit days are long gone.

In regard to the guy chasing a bank robber, I would not go chasing an armed robber anywhere. In fact I wouldn't even intervene in an armed robbery. UNTIL the armed robber starts executing people.

I am very familiar of the limits of a CCW vs being an LEO.

 

[jjfitch]

What sights are required for EDC 3+3+3?

In response to questions raised on my previous post.

What type of sighting device is on your EDC?

What sights are required for EDC 3+3+3?

Since stats show the majority of self-defense shooting occur at 3 feet to 3 yards in 3 seconds, I'm curious as to how to deploy a red dot!

I'm training students to shoot from retention the Combat,"speed rock" where the pistol is rotated at the draw and fired before the pistol reaches eye level. Usually 2 rounds in less than .5 seconds!
Now when firing from behind cover red dots definitely have their place!

Full disclosure my competition "gamer guns" have dots. A necessity at my advanced age!
My EDC usually has irons or tridium!

 

[Well Armed]

"She did the right thing. I don't know if any other person would have done that," said Lt. Tony Hazelett with the Charleston Police Department.

"This lady was carrying a lawful firearm," Hazelett said. "A law abiding citizen who stopped the threat of probably 20 or 30 people getting killed. She engaged the threat and stopped it. She didn't run from the threat, she engaged it. Preventing a mass casualty event here in Charleston."

A woman stopped a man armed with an AR15 who was shooting into a crowd of people.....

A person's carry license gives them the legal right to defend themselves, others, and even property in many states. Defending others, which is something many carriers have done in the past, doesn't mean you're a want to be LEO or you're going around looking for trouble or reasons to get involved in conflicts. What it means is that you're a freaking human being who is willing to stop evil and help your fellow man when evil presents itself to you. We have notable people like Jack Wilson, Elisjsha Dicken, and countless others who could have ran, but decided to stop a threat and save lives.

Next, optics are faster and more accurate whether 40 yards away or closer especially when taking shots on the move against a moving target. The proof is in the pudding. There's a reason who optic division in competition shooting whether with semiautos or revolvers where targets are typically no more than 20 yards away score higher and than with irons. There's a reason why the division are typically separated from each other, and why competitors choose optics in open divisions. Everyone who are critical of dots can pontificate all they want to about how irons are just as fast and dots won't make a difference inside 20 yards, but the evidence says their assumptions are dead wrong.

Last, let me add that there are situations where pointing and shooting is required, so neither irons or dots will need to be utilized. This by no means is proof that irons or dots worthless on carry guns as there are plenty of defensive situations where utilizing irons or dots are more ideal. I've seen a plethora of gun fights caught on video on the ActiveSelfDefense YouTube channel as well as other YouTube channels and my local news. I've seen gun fights start out within 3 feet, and then turned into the perp and the criminal continuing to fire at one another while fleeing and/or moving to cover. The notion that self-defense situations will be two standing and remaining still like a statue within 3 to 5 feet of each other if a foolish assumption to have IMHO.

 

[Well Armed]

.................

 

[AJ]

Ahh! With the change of scenario from self-defense to defense of others, you have completely changed the panorama relative to the concealed carrier. This will probably draw criticism, but it needs to be said.

Seriously, take a long look at the targets that many of the new shooters display on the internet, and these are most likely motivated by their perception for a need to defend themselves. I'm not trying to discourage them, but the demonstrated skill set could probably translate into a marginal qualification on a Q target. This is most likely someone that SHOULDN'T consider engaging a threat "in defense of others".

Hopefully, those of us here have a stronger skill set. How many of us can shoot a fist-sized group at 7 yards? Can keep our shots in the aiming black at 25 and 50 yards on regulation Bullseye targets, or keep our shots in the K5/9 ring or better of a B27 or the old Kill/Disable police targets?

This is where we need to look at the CCW-holder's experience level. Many of us here are most likely current or retired LEOs or prior service. Marksmanship was a strongly developed survival skill. For others, we may have a long or varied past in different target shooting games. While I am prior service, I have a long and varied past in competitions. I started shooting 2700 bullseye, then IHMSA. Prior to that, Jr smallbore rifle matches. Now it is F class matches with rifles out to 1000 yards and GSSF/ ShootSig/USPSA/2700 bullseye matches.

Looking at the Walmart scenario, your CCW gives you the permission to carry in order to protect yourself and your loved ones. Your CCW is not a hunting license to allow you to play a LEO! The nice thing about having shot IHMSA, is that it showed me what I was capable of, and more importantly, what I wasn't! Would I attempt a long shot with my P365? Only if it didn't go past 50 yards! I like to think that I know my limitations and those of my equipment.

When I was in the Corps we had what was called "Pistol Regs". These governed the use of deadly force. There were five regs. In civilian life I still follow only two of them. One is self defense, of course. The other is "In defense of others". Will I take a long shot with a snubbie? No....

 

[Gamecock]

A person's carry license gives them the legal right to defend themselves, others, and even property in many states.

Uhh . . . no. It gives them permission to carry a gun.

You have the right to defense regardless.

 

[Gamecock]

The scenario given was for across Walmart. It would be foolish to rush to the scene not knowing what has happened. You could very well shoot the carrier who just shot the bad guy.

I can easily imagine other scenarios where I would likely intervene. Suppose it weren't across Walmart, it was at checkout and I could see what was happening like in the next row.

I note that the one who posted it indicates military and LEO experience. Like I said in post #44, his advice may be exactly correct from his experiences.

 

[Well Armed]

Uhh . . . no. It gives them permission to carry a gun.

You have the right to defense regardless.

Looking at the Walmart scenario, your CCW gives you the permission to carry in order to protect yourself and your loved ones. Your CCW is not a hunting license to allow you to play a LEO!

It was a reference to this statement and not meant to be taken litteraly as the license is what gives the right to self-defense.

 

[326MOD10]

It wasn't a scenario it was demonstrating a distance and how you could be placed in a situation to take a longer shot. Well if you had the moral compass to do so.

When I stated "stop the carnage" it was implied that was the bad guy and you know this because you are watching him kill people.

I never said you run into Walmart and shoot the first person you see with a firearm.

Not a scenario and that is why I included the post about distance. Because my post was about the unlikely need to shoot at a greater distance and being ready for it.

In reality this whole conversation is unlikely for most but doesn't mean I should ignore the posibility.