Armed Customer Halts Violent Attack in Party Store - Would You Intervene?

[Mister X]

A good friend and I watched "Surviving edged weapons". We then proceeded to "test" the 21 foot rule. Boy, did it open our eyes to edged weapon attacks. Pretty much anything less than 21 feet and you can forget your firearm. This was with us KNOWING what we were going to do. I can just imagine how much longer it will take to react to a edged weapon attack. What 21 feet gives you is the chance to move and draw at the same time. Staying static at 21 feet and you may very well still get cut.

As far as impact weapons go, I'll take a knife over a bat, chair, etc. anytime. You may break my bones but I'll be cutting you once we engage. In life or death a broken arm is worth being able to spill you intestines on the floor.

Real fights are brutal, horrible events. No one leaves unscathed. The winner of a street fight is the one that doesn't end up in the morgue.

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Kudos on getting out there and experimenting. Movement is usually prudent in such cases although there are indeed instances where it may not be possible. A lot of folks fail to understand the dynamics and why I encourage participating in a Force on Force class.

In terms of impact weapon vs blade, the effectiveness of either weapon will depend on the individuals involved and the specifics of the particular scenario.

The same goes for the idea that nobody leaves unscathed in an actual steet fight. That simply isn't true, even when weapons are involved.

 

[cadmike]

There are so many variables in these situations that make it difficult to definitively say "I would do this" or "I would do that". Truth is I don't know what I would do. If life is on the line, I sure as heck hope I do the right thing in the moment.

 

[Kodiakco]

.

..The same goes for the idea that nobody leaves unscathed in an actual steet fight. That simply isn't true even when weapons are involved. I'm living proof of it.

As in life, there are exceptions to everything. There are not absolutes when humans are involved.



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[bigwheelzip]

Umm...hands can be deadly weapons. What if he's choking her to death?

We can play hypothetical ad nauseam. I'm responding to the punch situation presented in the OP.
As much as I might wish to be the Ramboesque physical specimen presented in the movies by Angelina Jolie, the reality is the polar opposite. Walking, breathing, and seeing are a challenge for me, so I'm not entering a structure with the intent of going to battle.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Why bother with concealed carry if all you have to say is "hey, stop doing that" to a bad guy.

If he's doing it to me or mine, I'll do a lot more than say "hey, stop doing that . . . " He'll stop doing that. That's why I carry a weapon . . .

 

[Protected One]

Walking, breathing, and seeing are a challenge for me, so I'm not entering a structure with the intent of going to battle.

If "walking, breathing, and seeing are a challenge" for you, it's safe to say you are understandably *removed* from the group to whom the question of intervening is directed!

 

[Protected One]

Quote:

..The same goes for the idea that nobody leaves unscathed in an actual steet fight. That simply isn't true even when weapons are involved. I'm living proof of it.

.
As in life, there are exceptions to everything. There are not absolutes when humans are involved.
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Why did you "edit" his quote and add something he did not say? ("I'm living proof of it")

Why bother with concealed carry if all you have to say is "hey, stop doing that" to a bad guy.

Did he say that was all you had to do, or did he suggest that as a first action - giving the BG an option?

 

[Muss Muggins]

Quote:

..The same goes for the idea that nobody leaves unscathed in an actual steet fight. That simply isn't true even when weapons are involved. I'm living proof of it.



Why did you "edit" his quote and add something he did not say? ("I'm living proof of it")

Kodiakco posted at 9:12. Mister X edited at 9:18. I saw the original post. it is quoted accurately . . .

 

[Kodiakco]

Thank you MM!

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[Mister X]

Kodiakco posted at 9:12. Mister X edited at 9:18. I saw the original post. it is quoted accurately . . .

This is correct. I decided to edit it and had it open for a few minutes after having to step away and never saw his response.

 

[Mister X]

.



As in life, there are exceptions to everything. There are not absolutes when humans are involved.



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It depends on what you view as being an exception. I've known and trained many LEO's who have been in countless fights and didn't suffer any serious injuries. I was involved in numerous violent encounters when working plainclothes security and elsewhere and emerged from them unscathed. I've also had quite a few civilian students who survived violent attacks no worse for wear.

 

[Protected One]

I have walked away from armed encounters unscathed, as have numerous friends of mine.

 

[Kodiakco]

First you have to discount all the LEO. 1. That's their job 2. They are trained for physical encounters. 3. A uniform, badge, gun and superior numbers makes a difference.

Again, not everyone get hurt. No guarantees LEO or not. You are also citing personal experiences. That is a very small sample size relative to the whole of the USA.

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[Mister X]

First you have to discount all the LEO. 1. That's their job 2. They are trained for physical encounters. 3. A uniform, badge, gun and superior numbers makes a difference.

Again, not everyone get hurt. No guarantees LEO or not. You are also citing personal experiences. That is a very small sample size relative to the whole of the USA.

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Your original post said no one...."Real fights are brutal, horrible events. No one leaves unscathed. The winner of a street fight is the one that doesn't end up in the morgue."

Then you said there are exceptions, which still isn't true either.

What facts are you basing your assertions on?

In 3 decades of teaching LEO's as well as having several family members in Law Enforcement, I've had access to information about numerous self-defense cases involving ordinary civilians. I even see such stories on the news on a fairly regular basis and have witnessed a few first hand, even a successful unarmed knife disarm by an untrained individual which is about as precarious as it gets. The idea that you will assuredly get horribly injured in an ECQ or any type of defense scenario is simply not factual.

 

[Protected One]

Your original post said no one...."Real fights are brutal, horrible events. No one leaves unscathed. The winner of a street fight is the one that doesn't end up in the morgue."

Then you said there are exceptions, which still isn't true either.

What facts are you basing your assertions on?

The idea that you will assuredly get horribly injured in an ECQ or any type of defense scenario is simply not factual.

It's a commonly held misconception.

 

[Fastbolt]

I can't presume to begin to suggest a course of action to anyone other than someone I might be training in a FTO program, and those days are behind me.

That said, any attempted intervention in any suspected, in-progress violent crime, whether an interrupted robbery or the range of things can fall within the heading of a "domestic", can be fraught with risk and unwanted consequences. LE have the partial shield of qualified immunity, while good Samaritans are probably mostly at the mercy of the local laws. Civil consequences can be expensive, too, depending on the state's laws.

Anyway, having been trained and experienced in such things, yes, depending on what I could see in the totality of circumstances of a specific situation, and if my wife or a grand daughter were not with me, I'd probably attempt to intervene by commanding the male to stop. My 'Command' voice apparently still gets immediate attention, and I've been told (by wife and friends) that I've slipped into projecting a demeanor where my body language, expression and general posture still appears as though I'm preparing to take command of a situation. Weird, and not something I was aware of doing at those times.

What I might, or might not, be willing to do if verbal intervention wasn't successful in stopping such an incident? Well, that's one of those situations where I'd offer, "It depends". On a lot of things.

Something that bothers me about this reported incident, though, is in this statement:

The customer told police the suspect tried to grab his gun – that's when he shot the attacker twice.

Lots of questions come to mind about what was happening leading up to that moment.

Drawing and presenting a gun is a dangerous event, even if it's done lawfully, reasonably and appropriately.

I wonder if the good Samaritan ever thought that someone might attempt to take control of his gun in such a situation?

Also, while much has been mentioned regarding the suspect's criminal background and history, it might be prudent to bear in mind that it generally isn't considered relevant to the good Samaritan's actions if it's not known to the good Samaritan at the time of the incident. It's something to be noted in the report & investigation, and something to be considered during the sentencing report, but probably suppressed during any trial, until and unless the suspect is eventually convicted of the current charge(s).

The interesting question here is for the good Samaritan, after this case is finally adjudicated. Would he do anything different, if it were to occur again?

Just some thoughts.

As a retired cop, I can't over-emphasize the inherent, unforeseen and unwanted dangers and risks to someone if attempting to intervene in a "domestic" incident, especially one involving strangers in public.

 

[Kodiakco]

@Mister X, I will agree that "no one" is to definitive and that "rarely" would have been more accurate. Based solely on my limited knowledge and research, I stand by the essence of what I said.

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[Whitwabit]

the mental attitude of I'm not going to get involved is the same reason Chicago and other big cities in America have such a bad gang banger problem everyone looks the other way and doesn't want to get involved ..

 

[cmort666]

the mental attitude of I'm not going to get involved is the same reason Chicago and other big cities in America have such a bad gang banger problem everyone looks the other way and doesn't want to get involved ..

No, it's not.

In order for the two to be equivalent, the "samaritan" would have to intervene on the side of the ASSAILANT, and for PROFIT.

Equating rampant corruption with a well founded fear of having one's attempt to do the right thing boomerang, is borne out neither by the facts nor elementary logic.

There's a world of difference between my not wanting to be sued, arrested or assaulted for helping somebody who doesn't really want to be helped, and my taking money to turn a blind eye to organized criminal activity.

 

[dougb1946]

the mental attitude of I'm not going to get involved is the same reason Chicago and other big cities in America have such a bad gang banger problem everyone looks the other way and doesn't want to get involved ..

No. There are a lot of reasons for Chicago. People not getting involved is a symptom, not a cause.

You get involved, you can die or be injured seriously enough to severely alter your life and your families. Carrying a gun does not give you enchanted body armor. The gun is just one last final option .