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I hope, for the sake of any innocent bystanders, that you don't actually reload.
Can you shoot .357 out of a .38 special only J frame?
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I hope, for the sake of any innocent bystanders, that you don't actually reload.
Simple answer, does your S&W manual for that particular handgun say you can? No? There's your answer.
I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not suggesting that anyone do what I have done, I am only telling you about my experiences. What any of you do is strictly up to you.
Now, a waaaayyy back in 2008 when I bought my 360J specifically to use it for a 9mm conversion project I called S&W to get some info just be sure that I wasn't having a grenade built. At that time I was told that the 360J frame is the same one that is used in the M&P 360 .357 magnum. I also specifically asked about the cylinders and if there was any difference in the metallurgy or heat treating of the .38 special cylinders compared to the .357 magnum cylinders and was told that the only difference between them was the depth that the chambers were cut.
Given that information and knowing that SAAMI max pressure for the .357mag is 35k PSI and having read numerous accounts of successful 9mm (35K PSI max) conversions that had been done using 940 cyls in early 642s, as well as knowing of several 940s that had been reamed to 9x23 to use .38 Super (36.5K PSI max), and having owned a PC940 356TSW (48K PSI in the same cyl as the 940 except for chamber dimensions), and subsequent info I got from the gunsmith, I went forward with my conversion plans.
When speaking to Mark Hartshorne of Pinnacle High Performance prior to having him do the work on my gun, he pointed out that, unlike the solid 4"-6" test barrels, snubbies not only bleed off pressure from the barrel/cylinder gap but that their shorter 1 7/8"-2" barrels don't allow for full pressure build up (which is why bullets are slower out of shorter barrels).
So, now that all of that background info is out of the way, I will tell you that I have shot 9mm, 9mm +P, 9mm +P+, .38 Super, 9mm Largo, and 9x23 Winchester through my 360J over the last 8 years with no ill effects. In fact, I had the gun back to Mark last year to have a titanium .38spl cylinder fitted to it and he went through it thoroughly and the gun is in fine shape. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, it's been far more regular pressure 9mm than the others, say 85%, followed by 9mm +P+ and .38 Super 10%, then 9mm +P and 9mm Largo 5%, and just a couple of cylinders of 9x23 Winchester because the recoil is incredibly brutal out of a 13oz gun.
All of that being said, I personally would not try to load .38spl cases to .357mag pressures, you're just inviting catastrophic case failure. Because, while the gun may be built to handle .357mag pressures, .38spl cases are not made to withstand them. If I wanted to shoot .357mags out of my 360J I would either get a .357mag cylinder for my gun or have my existing cylinder reamed to .357mag dimensions and use .357mag ammo/cases.
Finally, before anyone gets all up in arms about changing calibers, cylinders, etc., you need to keep in mind that S&W and other gun companies standardize many components in the interest of saving money. It's cheaper in the long run to have one frame built to use in many guns that is built to the strength necessary for the most powerful chambering compared to building multiple versions of exactly the same frame that are tested to different strengths - weaker frames for weaker cartridges. The same goes for cylinders, less expensive to have all of your cylinder blanks made and heat treated to a certain strength then cut the chambers as needed than make a bunch of stronger or weaker cyls. It may have been different 60, 70, 80+ years ago but this is how it is now.
In addition, there is a long history of rechambering revolvers or converting them by changing cylinders and barrels. In the '60s, '70s, and into the '80s, N frame revolvers in some calibers, like .44mag,, were extremely hard to come by. It was quite common for gunsmiths to convert guns like the M28 Highway Patrolman, which were plentiful and inexpensive, to more desireable calibers by changing out cyls and barrels or rechambering and reboring them. It was a matter of making do with what you had vs what was available and the desired outcome vs cost effectiveness. Obviously, this practice continues today with gunsmiths like Mark Hartshorne, Hamilton Bowen, David Clements, and others offering interesting and unique caliber conversions. In fact, just the other day I shipped an M28-2 to Mark along with a titanium .41mag cylinder and a 4" M58 barrel, when he returns it to me I'll have a slick and useful midweight 3" round butt .41mag revolver in place of the beater .357mag he's starting with.
Now, a waaaayyy back in 2008 when I bought my 360J specifically to use it for a 9mm conversion project I called S&W to get some info just be sure that I wasn't having a grenade built. At that time I was told that the 360J frame is the same one that is used in the M&P 360 .357 magnum. I also specifically asked about the cylinders and if there was any difference in the metallurgy or heat treating of the .38 special cylinders compared to the .357 magnum cylinders and was told that the only difference between them was the depth that the chambers were cut.
Given that information and knowing that SAAMI max pressure for the .357mag is 35k PSI and having read numerous accounts of successful 9mm (35K PSI max) conversions that had been done using 940 cyls in early 642s, as well as knowing of several 940s that had been reamed to 9x23 to use .38 Super (36.5K PSI max), and having owned a PC940 356TSW (48K PSI in the same cyl as the 940 except for chamber dimensions), and subsequent info I got from the gunsmith, I went forward with my conversion plans.
When speaking to Mark Hartshorne of Pinnacle High Performance prior to having him do the work on my gun, he pointed out that, unlike the solid 4"-6" test barrels, snubbies not only bleed off pressure from the barrel/cylinder gap but that their shorter 1 7/8"-2" barrels don't allow for full pressure build up (which is why bullets are slower out of shorter barrels).
So, now that all of that background info is out of the way, I will tell you that I have shot 9mm, 9mm +P, 9mm +P+, .38 Super, 9mm Largo, and 9x23 Winchester through my 360J over the last 8 years with no ill effects. In fact, I had the gun back to Mark last year to have a titanium .38spl cylinder fitted to it and he went through it thoroughly and the gun is in fine shape. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, it's been far more regular pressure 9mm than the others, say 85%, followed by 9mm +P+ and .38 Super 10%, then 9mm +P and 9mm Largo 5%, and just a couple of cylinders of 9x23 Winchester because the recoil is incredibly brutal out of a 13oz gun.
All of that being said, I personally would not try to load .38spl cases to .357mag pressures, you're just inviting catastrophic case failure. Because, while the gun may be built to handle .357mag pressures, .38spl cases are not made to withstand them. If I wanted to shoot .357mags out of my 360J I would either get a .357mag cylinder for my gun or have my existing cylinder reamed to .357mag dimensions and use .357mag ammo/cases.
Finally, before anyone gets all up in arms about changing calibers, cylinders, etc., you need to keep in mind that S&W and other gun companies standardize many components in the interest of saving money. It's cheaper in the long run to have one frame built to use in many guns that is built to the strength necessary for the most powerful chambering compared to building multiple versions of exactly the same frame that are tested to different strengths - weaker frames for weaker cartridges. The same goes for cylinders, less expensive to have all of your cylinder blanks made and heat treated to a certain strength then cut the chambers as needed than make a bunch of stronger or weaker cyls. It may have been different 60, 70, 80+ years ago but this is how it is now.
In addition, there is a long history of rechambering revolvers or converting them by changing cylinders and barrels. In the '60s, '70s, and into the '80s, N frame revolvers in some calibers, like .44mag,, were extremely hard to come by. It was quite common for gunsmiths to convert guns like the M28 Highway Patrolman, which were plentiful and inexpensive, to more desireable calibers by changing out cyls and barrels or rechambering and reboring them. It was a matter of making do with what you had vs what was available and the desired outcome vs cost effectiveness. Obviously, this practice continues today with gunsmiths like Mark Hartshorne, Hamilton Bowen, David Clements, and others offering interesting and unique caliber conversions. In fact, just the other day I shipped an M28-2 to Mark along with a titanium .41mag cylinder and a 4" M58 barrel, when he returns it to me I'll have a slick and useful midweight 3" round butt .41mag revolver in place of the beater .357mag he's starting with.
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No, but if you have evidence to the contrary, I think the group would be interested.
Just curious, are the 38 special cylinders in the 360j the same length as the 357 cylinders - so it would be a direct swap (without having to cut the barrel back & re-cut the forcing cone)?
I ask because obviously doing a cylinder swap for one that was made for 357's would be a completely different kettle of fish. If you could direct swap them, then it might be worthwhile.
Though obviously more expensive than just buying one chambered for 357 in the first place...
I ask because obviously doing a cylinder swap for one that was made for 357's would be a completely different kettle of fish. If you could direct swap them, then it might be worthwhile.
Though obviously more expensive than just buying one chambered for 357 in the first place...
OP
Stopsign32v
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You asked a question, and you're not getting the answer you wanted, so you don't seem willing to accept it.
Tell you what, you don't like the answer you're getting here, then ask Smith & Wesson. Better yet, get a 38 special cylinder and a 357 cylinder and have them subjected to destructive testing and analyzed.
Or do your own redneck destructive testing - ruin your 360j by having the cylinder reamed to chamber 357s, and start shooting 357 rounds in it - and see how long it lasts.
Then come back here and tell us we're all wrong. Assuming you still have fingers to type with and both eyes to see the computer screen...
I asked a question in hopes of answers, not opinions and criticization as to why you think it isn't a good idea.
To give you an idea of what to expect for a weight difference, my gun weighs 10.7oz without grips and the titanium .38spl cylinder in it (also the hammer has been bobbed). With the original steel cyl, which has been reamed to 9x23 and cut for moonclips, it weighs 12.6oz without grips. That's about 10%, it doesn't sound like much on 'paper' but in your hand, a pocket, or an ankle holster it is definitely noticeable.
As an aside, I never asked anyone at S&W but I believe that the published weights for the scandium framed snubbies were for the guns without grips, because they came with several different grips over the years but the published weights never changed and it's easy to pick up an ounce or more going from a rubber boot grip to a longer rubber 'combat' grip.
I've had a set of Crimson Trace LG-105 laser grips on my gun since I started carrying it and they add 1.4oz to it, so it's 12.1oz with the titanium .38spl cylinder and CT LG-105 grips. Add five 129gr Federal Hydra-shok +Ps and it weighs 14.4oz.
Yes. All of the J magnum frame cylinders are the same length.
Yeah, caliber conversions always have to be weighed against the cost of just buying a gun already chambered in the caliber you want. That's why they're usually done in calibers that weren't available in the frame size and barrel length you want or done on a gun that you either got cheap or have had around long enough that any added cost is a moot point.
You got answers - but you've basically decided to argue with them instead of listening.
Dude, do what you want. You've obviously made up your mind that what you want to do is OK, no matter how many people you have telling you why it isn't a good idea.
So why bother to ask?
I think "Don't do it . . . " is an answer. Did you ever decide about your other question, loading .38 S&W Special cases to .357 Magnum pressures . . . ?
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Ole Joe Clark
Absent Comrade
I for one, do not want to see the results on You Tube. Missing fingers and blood make me want to throw up.
Leon
Leon
Does anyone here get some kind of a feeling that there is a little more thinking in WC145's lengthy post than in the original post?
OP: YOU have the unorthodox opinion. Why someone else thinks it isn't a good idea IS an answer. You don't have to agree with it. You are free to "prove" it wrong. You are also free to blow your ****ing hand off, and you are sort of free to injure those near you when it happens, although you may be required to pay for the results. However, you shouldn't feel entitled to agreement from folks who are a little more careful than you.
BTW, my own UNeducated opinion is that, if you actually reload and actually follow reliable books, you will probably get away with it, except for maybe minor (or major?) discomfort to your hand.
But what do I know? Maybe even less than you.
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Stopsign32v
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Mods just go ahead and lock this
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Actually, you have received several answers, including the ones you object to. Also, Forrest Gump answered your question.
Yeah, probably for the best.
You probably aren't going to get the "Yes, it is a GREAT idea" answer you are looking for - no matter how long the thread goes.
Sorry.
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OP
Stopsign32v
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I did get my answers:
S&W has stated the steel cylinder of the J frame 38 specials and 357 magnum are the same other than the length
38 special and 357 magnum brass are the same strength wise only difference is length
You can use math to keep the pressure the same between the two cartridges
Aftermarket companies have been converting 38 special cylinders to accept 9mm and 38 super for many years, both which have very high pressure
S&W has stated the steel cylinder of the J frame 38 specials and 357 magnum are the same other than the length
38 special and 357 magnum brass are the same strength wise only difference is length
You can use math to keep the pressure the same between the two cartridges
Aftermarket companies have been converting 38 special cylinders to accept 9mm and 38 super for many years, both which have very high pressure
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Be sure to post the video.
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Stopsign32v
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I never said I planned to do it, nor do I plan to. 357 magnum out of a 2" barrel is pointless IMO. I was simply asking a question.
Somebody can, but YOU can't. You don't know ANY of the pressures involved.
IMO, the issue is trying to load .38spl brass to .357mag pressures. Brass is made to be strong enough for the loads it's meant to contain, and different brands of brass may be stronger/thicker or weaker/thinner in different areas than others. In the case of .38spl, the SAAMI max pressure is 17K PSI, compared to .357mag which has a SAAMI max pressure of 35K PSI. Even if an ammunition company proofed it's brass to SAAMI max + 50% (which is probably way more than we can reasonably ask for) that would mean the best .38spl brass might be good to a max of 25.5K PSI, still 10K PSI under the 35K PSI max for .357mag. So, even hypothetically, the best .38spl brass isn't going to hold up to .357mag pressures. In addition, if you chose to cut .357mag brass down to .38spl length you would probably have to exceed the SAAMI max pressure for that brass to attain the same ballistics as the .357mag load you're trying to reproduce.
I don't see any safe way to get .357mag performance using .38spl brass, you simply cannot expect the cases to hold up. In fact, you should expect them to fail, and that's pretty dangerous stuff to be messing with.
I don't see any safe way to get .357mag performance using .38spl brass, you simply cannot expect the cases to hold up. In fact, you should expect them to fail, and that's pretty dangerous stuff to be messing with.
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SLT223
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StopSign, I think the tall order in the scenario you described is reliably and safely achieving .357 velocity in the smaller volume .38 special case. If a full power .357 can develop 36kpsi, then the same load in a smaller case would be higher pressure. Would it still be safe? Dunno, but the pressure increase would be the problem regardless of whether or not the metallurgy can withstand .357 Mag stress...because now we are talking about even higher pressure. Even if the gun survives, you would likely need a hammer and dowel to eject the empties.
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LDM
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Sounds like a good way to get nominated for a Darwin award.
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Stopsign32v
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Good points right there. If you took away the charge to keep the pressure the same, in turn would you still have equal velocity?
Same pressure + same bullet + same gun = same velocity.
Change any of those variables and the velocity changes. This is basic cartridge theory 101.
Is this all just a learning exercise on your part?
If so, may I suggest reading a few good books on reloading and ballistics, instead of starting threads theorizing about unsafe reloading ideas?
You will probably learn a lot more in a shorter time, and you won't get a large group of people so worked up and concerned that you are proposing doing something dangerous.
This isn't like hacking a computer or cell phone where the worst thing that can happen is you "brick" your device and it quits working. Reloading ammunition and shooting it in handguns aren't things to be trifled with. It is serious business with serious consequences for getting it wrong.
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SLT223
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To achieve lower pressure and the same velocity you are talking about going to a slower powder. You may run out of cartridge case capacity before getting to the velocity you desire. Check out the charge weights of the slowest pistol powders in .357. You would need even more of a slower powder.
Now lets say the charge could fit. Beyound H110, which is a fast rifle powder, youre getting into medium burn rate rifles powders. These need pressure to burn, which you wouldn't be achieving in a handgun...especially one with a barrel to cylinder gap. If you got this to work, the muzzle blast would be like a stun grenade I would think.
Years ago a friend of mine loaded up some 38 special loads with 3.5 grains of Bullseye. We fired a few through his Colt Detective Special and found not only did they kick like a mule, but they they were showing excessive pressure signs. We quit after just a a few shots and went back to his loading room. My friend who's very gun savy and normally diligent with his reloading had suffered a brain lapse and loaded not 3.5 grains, but 3 plus 5 grains for a total of 8 grains of bullseye. A 357 magnum load. Luckily the gun nor the shooters were damaged, but a lesson was learned by him about keeping your mind on what your doing, and me about shooting someone else's reloads!
one eye joe
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Good Lord.......
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcJARlwII90[/ame]
Who in the world shoots one of these? Hogue monogrip and padded gloves might keep it from breaking your hand.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcJARlwII90[/ame]
Who in the world shoots one of these? Hogue monogrip and padded gloves might keep it from breaking your hand.
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