Can you tell level of usage by extent of flame cutting?

[Larks]

This is a 686 that I'm told by the previous owner has had only about 800 rounds through it .....however my very inexperienced eye didn't expect to see this extent of flame cutting in the top strap for that few rounds. The serial number seems to be around 2004ish (I've posted on the serial number dating thread to check - its a CHF xxxx no.).

Does anyone have any thoughts on how many rounds you'd expect would have gone through this firearm? I didn't take any pic's of the recoil shield but there didn't seem to be much of an imprint of any kind:

Whilst a 686-1 that I also looked at, although not yet cleaned by the seller so not as easy to see in the photo's, seems to have next to no flame cutting in the top strap:

 

[Pizza Bob]

No. Flame cutting is self-limiting

 

[riverrat38]

Its also highly dependent on the type of ammo used.
Full power magnum loads with lighter bullets will subject the metal to higher pressure and temperature.

Best,
Rick

 

[drummer007]

Photos 2 and 3 look like lead buildup. Just an opinion from photos.

 

[Cal44]

I had a 686 and thought it was suffering from flame cutting and so would baby it with light loads and didn't shoot it much.

Then I cleaned it thoroughly and found that what I thought was flame cutting was just lead buildup. There was practically no flame cutting at all when I got the lead off.

 

[drummer007]

Soak the area with your favorite solvent and scrub it with a brass toothbrush (if you are careful) or a stainless toothbrush (if you are like me).

Then take a lead wipe-a-way cloth and shoeshine the area between the top of the barrel/forcing cone and the bottom of the top of the frame and then repeat the solvent and metal toothbrush treatment.

You may be happy with how it looks afterwards.

 

[garbler]

What Pizza Bob said is pretty much what I've found. There are some exceptions as with Ruger's famous 357 Max revolvers but those cases were holding a lot of powder per bore size. A lot of slower powders like H110/4227 did scour some metal but only so far then that was it. I don't think there are any stock chamberings for S&W revolvers or loads for these cartridges that can really cut up a top strap very badly even with the slowest of powders. Of course cylinder gap and tolerances can come into play but the amount of flame, distance traveled and actual heat applied to top strap is pretty much finite or limited. It usually looks worse than it is.

I used to maintain and smith rental revolvers for a couple of ranges and the owners wondered about this on some 357's and model 29's. We actually measured and chronicled the depth of scarring on the top strap and as Pizza Bob says it only went so deep which was something in the neighborhood of .025 at the most. It did however seem like the 6 series stainless frames suffered worse.

My take on it anyway but there was a very interesting article in one of the old gun rags re: the Ruger BH 357 Max flame cutting problems with some great photos and analysis. Of course Ruger quickly pulled those guns and gave up on the cartridge but a lot of very knowledgable people thought he should have ignored what essentially was a bogus problem. Your photos reveal nothing of consequence as far as flame cutting damage

 

[buck460XVR]

Flame cutting is no indication of how many rounds a gun has seen, only that it has seen ammo using slow burning powders. It is also not a indication of wear or abuse. What I see in the first photo is not what I would call excessive flame cutting, nor is it surprising that it only took 800 rounds to do it.

 

[S&WIowegan]

Lark,

There is no flame cutting on your revolver. What you see and are showing us is accumulated lead and carbon crud. It can all be cleaned off.

Flame cutting is highly over-rated and is generally a bogey man story we use to scare newbies. Once the newby is really worried, then he sells the gun to us cheap.

 

[Snapping Twig]

Probably not be too popular for this but...

Check out the forcing cones in your pics. The edges of the 586 are crisp while the edges on the 581 are far from crisp.

The 581 shows considerable wear.

Is it an issue? If there's no lead being spit and accuracy is good, then no.

I'd look at the forcing cone long before I'd look at the top strap for cutting to determine wear/use.

 

[Safestuffer]

Here is a 586 I picked up on the cheap last year.

That is what severe flame cutting looks like.
I have no idea what the round count on this gun is, but it is high. In addition to the flame cutting on the topstrap and forcing cone, the ejector rod bluing was worn completely off, the rifling in the throat is visably worn, and the cylinder stop stud on the frame is peened down pretty far.

 

[Larks]

Thanks for the comments all, they're all greatly appreciated and great fodder for learning for a newbie to revolvers like I am. FWIW I don't think what you can see in the first two pics of the later model 686 (and my apologies for the poor quality photos) is lead build up - or at least not all lead build up, as I could clearly feel the cut with my fingernail. It had been cleaned in an ultrasonic but I'm never convinced that they'll remove lead build up so perhaps......?

I'm not particularly worried by it, just questioning the veracity of the 800 rounds claim - (said to be .38's of 2 1/2 grain loads).

However it does have a few other gremlins that, on reflection overnight, suggest to me that I'm better off looking elsewhere anyway:
The barrel is slightly skewed;
Screws have all been damaged;
Claimed age doesn't match with the serial number (PO said he bought it new just a few years ago);
Claimed usage doesn't match with the "appearance";
Trigger has been adjusted/modified by the PO;
Foresight has slight damage; and
It just doesn't "feel" right......

 

[garbler]

I am certainly no expert or metallurgist with all the answers here but here is my take on your observations snapping Twig. There is a difference between the phenomena known as top strap flame cutting and normal throat errosion of a forcing cone. Forcing cones are front line and center for bullets and hot gas/flame abuse and therefore wear out or erode proportionate to shots fired and the types of loads used. The more you shoot the gun the faster the cone will erode.

So the impact of jacketed and lead bullets entering the cone followed by a stream of hot ignited powder gases causes the errosion of the cone. The slower the powders the more powder that enters and erodes the cone and continues its burn down the barrel. This condition continues to varying degrees along as the gun is shot.

As the bullet exits the chamber throat into the forcing cone the cylinder to barrel gap allows this hot explosive gas to escape like a 360 degree disc at essentially the thickness of the cylinder gap. So let's say your shooting a 357 or 41 mag at apprx 35-40K psi that blows out red hot gas a distance of perhaps a 1/4" +- into the top strap. This disc of hot gas is concentrated about the same width as the cylinder gap which is significant . This really hot concentrated stream of flame and gas is at its worst with slow pistol powders or those cartridges running at high pressure. It's no wonder you don't have flame cutting and badly eroded forcing cones with the older revolvers much. We didn't have the high pressure and performance powders back then.

This same disc of escaping gas is the primary reason your revolver has a gas ring below to protect the yoke. It sounds really bad but in fact I've never seen a top strap that was cut deep enough to worry about. Forcing cones are a different story and often hard to figure. Some lead bullet Bullseye guns shoot better with washed out cones which may explain why S&W gurus like Ron Power and Jim Clark swear by cutting or relieving a cone to 11 degrees.

Oh well

 

[Snapping Twig]

^ S'what I was sayin.

Forcing cone tells the tale.

but

It also tells other tales.

Timing issues manifest there as well as alignment.

 

[Peak53]

Since this gun doesn't "feel" right to you, you are making a good decision to pass. There are plenty of 686s out there for you to find the right one.

 

[Sunbird]

Greg, keep looking!

 

[Larks]

Greg, keep looking!

I will Mike, I'm in no great rush and would rather pick the right one than, whether it's a new one or "pre-loved". I'm seeing the difference in price between new and second hand (around $500.00) as going quite a long way towards a decent bit of new reloading gear...but that won't compromise what I end up buying.