Confirmed production nos. on 45 CQB models

[vigil617]

The other thread about the Performance Center 45 CQB pistols got me to thinking that all I'd seen were estimates of the production numbers of these fine 45's.

Realizing the 45 CQBs were distributed by Lew Horton's, I got in touch with Earl Minot, forum member and honcho there, to find out how many of these came through there back in 1998.

As always, Earl was happy to help and prompt as could be. I provided him with four product codes, based on what we've seen in the SCSW and in skjos's spreadsheet, and here's what he found for us:

170105 Model 4566 CQB – All Stainless. Serial number range – CQB0108 to CQB0197, plus PCZ0186 (pre production sample). Total received by Lew Horton's: 91 units

170106 Model 4563 CQB – Alloy Frame – All Black finish. Serial number range – CQB0001 to CQB0106, plus PCZ0188 (pre production sample), plus PCZ0331 that was received as a used gun after being used and photographed for the American Handgunner (Jan-Feb 2001) article. Within that serial number range there were 5 numbers not received. This is common, they were most probably retained by S&W as sales samples. Total received by Lew Horton's: 103 units (probable production 108 units)

170118 Model 4563 CQB – Black Stainless Slide/ Natural Alloy Frame. Serial number range – CQC0001 to CQC0211. Total quantity received by Lew Horton's: 211 units

170127 This was not a Lew Horton gun. We have no receiving under that part number. The SCSW has a mixed message on 170127. It's listed on page 343, but not on page 370. Could have been another distributor's special, or a Smith factory offering.

So there you have it, 45 CQB fans, straight from the distributor. By the way, that last product number is apparently for a model previously reported here on the Forum to have been a very small run (20?) by the PC for a West Coast LE agency, and the gun was all stainless with blackened slide.

Anyone wanting a share a photo of their CQB, have at it! (Hopefully, wlp624 will be along with his photos of the three models all together, too.)

 

[18DAI]

Thank you for that information vigil!

I own 4563 PCZ0331, the American Handgunner 45 CQB. I will search my references tonight but IIRC there were a couple of all steel two tone 4566 CQBs.

I think member Grinder owned one and maybe member Palmetto Sharpshooter owned the other or had info on it.

Thanks again for sharing this valuable info with us! Best regards, 18DAI

 

[Laddy Smith]

Great research!

Thanks to Mr. Minot & Mr. Vigil for the doing the leg work on this.

I wonder how many members have these CQB's & how many we could get pics of in order of production number.

Lad

 

[ericlw]

I have an all black cqb i thought i had some pics of it posted around here. not sure what serial number i have. i think a few people on here have one also.

 

[ericlw]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=180524&d=1421023587


Have to post my serial number later

 

[gasaman]

Can anyone educate me on production numbers for the 4553TSW? It has a product code of # 104560 and a special order # 7239. This is the no rail version with a 6 rd mag.

 

[03Fatboy]

Just a thought. Since you have a contact at Lew Horton. Would it be possible to request the same information for other Lew Horton distributed models such as the 945's?

With the goal of this information being updated on skjos list.

 

[vigil617]

Can anyone educate me on production numbers for the 4553TSW? It has a product code of # 104560 and a special order # 7239. This is the no rail version with a 6 rd mag.

Gasaman, it doesn't look like production numbers on this model have ever been published here on the Forum, and a quick Google search doesn't show any results either. Yours is the model produced in the 1997 to 1999 time frame, of course, before S&W went to the railed version for several years. We know there aren't many of the no rail versions around, at least in comparison to its also relatively scarce brother, the 4513TSW no rail.

I'd say you were a prime candidate to get a Roy Jinks letter on your gun so we could add this bit of production knowledge to our database.

Too bad it was a production gun and not a special for Lew Horton's, since our friend Earl Minot is able and willing to help us with numbers on the Horton's guns, as he did here with the 45 CQB's.

 

[vigil617]

Just a thought. Since you have a contact at Lew Horton. Would it be possible to request the same information for other Lew Horton distributed models such as the 945's?

With the goal of this information being updated on skjos list.

I'm sure Earl would be glad to help with it, 03Fatboy, and he has said in the past that he doesn't mind being contacted. Updating steve's list of the Performance Center pistols is a worthy objective, too.

Earl can be reached by email at [email protected] if you'd like to drop him a line about a 945. (He's been so good about helping me, I kinda hate to "go to the well" too often, as I'm sure he has his normal work to do there in addition to what he's taken on in response to our inquiries.)

 

[gasaman]

Should I not be carrying it until I get it lettered? Are they that scarce?

Gasaman, it doesn't look like production numbers on this model have ever been published here on the Forum, and a quick Google search doesn't show any results either. Yours is the model produced in the 1997 to 1999 time frame, of course, before S&W went to the railed version for several years. We know there aren't many of the no rail versions around, at least in comparison to its also relatively scarce brother, the 4513TSW no rail.

I'd say you were a prime candidate to get a Roy Jinks letter on your gun so we could add this bit of production knowledge to our database.

Too bad it was a production gun and not a special for Lew Horton's, since our friend Earl Minot is able and willing to help us with numbers on the Horton's guns, as he did here with the 45 CQB's.

 

[vigil617]

Should I not be carrying it until I get it lettered? Are they that scarce?

I have no idea, really, if they're that scarce. I wouldn't think a production gun would be, though. There are bound to be at least a few hundred of these, but that's a pure guess.

Maybe others have a better idea.

 

[vigil617]

Thank you for that information vigil!

I own 4563 PCZ0331, the American Handgunner 45 CQB. I will search my references tonight but IIRC there were a couple of all steel two tone 4566 CQBs.

I think member Grinder owned one and maybe member Palmetto Sharpshooter owned the other or had info on it.

Thanks again for sharing this valuable info with us! Best regards, 18DAI

Earl shared a copy of that magazine cover with me. Here it is, for posterity!

 

[ericlw]

alright the serial number of mine is cqb0078 all black model.

I bought mine used several years ago. I remember when I saw it for sale online at my local gun store i knew it was somthing different. I went down during lunch to go buy it. I probably even over paid for it but i wanted it.At the time i didnt know how limited production gun it was.

 

[skjos]

The Performance Center List has been updated with this latest information. Thanks Chip and Earl.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...te-3rd-gen-performance-center-model-list.html

 

[wlp624]

Anyone wanting a share a photo of their CQB, have at it! (Hopefully, wlp624 will be along with his photos of the three models all together, too.)

Thanks vigil, Just like Beeltejuice, say my name and I'll happily appear!

 

[vigil617]

Thanks vigil, Just like Beeltejuice, say my name and I'll happily appear!

And always good to see you, Bill! What an awesome group of pistols you have there! Seeing them all together is a treat. Thanks for sharing!

 

[swmetal]

170105 Model 4566 CQB – All Stainless. Serial number range – CQB0108 to CQB0197, plus PCZ0186 (pre production sample). Total received by Lew Horton's: 91 units

Was there then only ONE PC 4566 with a serial number starting with PCZ? If so, I think I found it and wondered what its value may be?

 

[s&wchad]

Better late than never.

CQC #46

 

[vigil617]

Was there then only ONE PC 4566 with a serial number starting with PCZ? If so, I think I found it and wondered what its value may be?

There could well be others, I suppose. PCZ was a prefix used for a number of different pre-production S&W guns. All we know from what Earl provided is that a PC 4566 CQB in the PCZ series came through Lew Horton's as a special. I have a hunch, but it is only a hunch, there could be other PC 4566 pistols with a PCZ prefix.

I don't know which one you found, but here is a picture of one that I picked off of a previous Forum post. I have a hunch this is one of those unicorn LAPD guns that were all-stainless with blackened slide, and I'd love for someone to confirm or deny:



Also, skjos's spreadsheet of Performance Center Third Gens lists a PC 4566 that had an attached rail. Don't know anything more about that, including serial number range.

Come out, come out, wherever you are!

 

[vigil617]

PC 4566 fans, here's something I just found that will interest you: a copy of the first page of an article by Wiley Clapp describing the PC 4566 and having great pics of both sides of an example that is black, all stainless, and with adjustable sights AND a rail! It is a new PCZ number to me -- PCZ 0427.

This is perhaps the model that skjos lists in his spreadsheet identified as "PC 4566" with the attached rail.

Thanks to member swcqb45, who posted this about nine years ago in a discussion of the PC 4566's, and that I just ran across today.

Hunting Pictures - 04-30-2006_10_48_28AM

 

[swmetal]

OK, all, I am pretty sure its serial # is the PCZ0186 identified by Earl. Now the big questions is how much is it worth - Is it worth the same, more, or much more than the production ones with CQB serial numbers?

I am trying to decide if I should go for it...

 

[vigil617]

swmetal,

From what I gather, a pistol likely to be the one you are looking at was once owned by a Forum member who described it in 2010 as a "170105 CQB proto with front NS". He did not give the serial number, but the product code and the fact it was a prototype correspond with the pistol identified by Earl as PCZ 0186, a 4566 CQB all stainless model of which 91 were made.

The photo our member provided no longer exists on the thread, unfortunately, and since that member has sold some of his collection of Performance Center pistols, what you are seeing could likely have been part of his collection at one time. I would guess it looks very similar to the one in member wlp624's group photo posted above, on the right side of the picture. I also would guess that it does not have the "45 CQB Performance Center" banner on the left side, and instead just has "Smith & Wesson, Springfield, MA, USA" on there.

IMHO, a pre-production model doesn't have a premium attached to its value except to the extent the rest of its series is worth a premium due to rarity. Since the 4566 CQB all-stainless finish was only 91 units, and since what you have is basically that pistol, yours should be worth whatever the others are. Just my opinion; an extremely serious collector might pay more, but how much is anyone's guess.

The 4566 CQB stainless pistols, in my opinion, are worth a bit more than either of the 4563 CQBs, and less than the 4566 CQB with blackened slide in all stainless, as only perhaps 20 of those were made.

Depending on condition and what comes with it, I'd guess PCZ 0186 is worth in the $1,500 to $2,000 range to someone who knows what it is. Hard to nail it down any closer than that, though.

 

[swmetal]

Thanks for the info vigil617. I was hoping the pre-production being a one-off might bring a nice premium over the production CQBs. Now I have to decide if I should make the investment in it.

 

[vigil617]

I hope some other folks will chime in on opinions of value on this pistol, too. I'd feel better if you were making your decision based on more than just what I am telling you. As I tried to emphasize, my estimate is a guess.

If you decide not to go for it, there are several folks on here who would love to get their hands on a 4566 CQB all stainless pistol, and I think they want the pistol itself more than they do the fact that it has a CQB billboard on it. (Does this one have the billboard, or like many of the other prototypes, is it "plain"?)

I wish I were in a position to buy one of these myself right now.

By the way: I'm more convinced now, having done some more research since this afternoon, that the PC 4566 that has the blackened slide (the one I posted a picture of, with serial number PCZ 01xx), is one of the approximately 20 that were ordered for an LA agency in 1997 and received by them in 1998. These are for all practical purposes 4566 CQB pistols, but are not marked as such because they were a special order before the CQB-labeled pistols came into being. I saw a post from a Forum member who owned one of that group, who provided the rest of the information I have included here, and it seems rock-solid.

 

[vigil617]

Today I found pictures of one of the Performance Center 4566 prototypes or special order guns from the PCZ series, which included the 20 or so PC 4566 pistols with blackened slides that went to the agency in Los Angeles in 1998. These pictures show the entire serial number though: PCZ 0196.

I found these online in the archives of a gun dealer, and the record indicates the pistol was pre-owned, had a titanium bushing, and sold for close to $1,000. However, no date of the sale is provided, so this doesn't help us much with a 2015 valuation on this pistol or ones like it in the PCZ series.

Here are the photos for your enjoyment. A PC 4566 of any kind -- prototype, special order, or labeled CQB model -- is a thing of beauty:

 

[skjos]

Also, skjos's spreadsheet of Performance Center Third Gens lists a PC 4566 that had an attached rail. Don't know anything more about that, including serial number range.

Come out, come out, wherever you are!

The PC 4566 listed on the chart is the one that was included in the "Combat Handguns" article; I added a bit more to the spreadsheet description.

Also, for the complete Combat Handgun's article see here:

www.skjos.net - /sw/PC4566/

 

[mustang2]

Would the preproduction CQB 4566 serial number PCZ0186 have any additional value over the 90 production CQB 4566's? What would be a current market value for these in average condition today?

 

[swmetal]

Did you buy PCZ0186? I saw it a number of months ago for sale and really wanted to add it to my collection but the price was just too high, and at or above what I thought market value should be.

From the info I gathered, there was likely no value premium for the pre-production PCZ.

I am sure you will enjoy it if you did or are going to buy it.

 

[18DAI]

I own PCZ0331 the pistol used in the American Handgunner magazine shown above. 5 years ago I had a local collector/dealer appraise it for insurance purposes.

Back then he put a value of $2500 on it, then offered me $2k for it. He then advised me to put it up on Gunbroker- with my copy of the magazine. He said it would bring "crazy money" there with its verifiable history. I've not done that, yet. But I think that the PCZ prefix adds to the value of these already scarce guns. YMMV. Regards 18DAI

 

[mustang2]

Thanks for the info. I ended up bringing it home. Looking to pick up a few factory mags.