Dare I Start Another Canted Barrel Thread?

[lfurr]

OK, so I am going absolutely nuts over this. New gun owner here. Purchased a 686P, love it. I am one of those with a canted barrel. I am getting so darn many conflicting reports that I have no idea what to do anymore.

Some make it sound so easy...they say "Well, if it's shooting straight, doin't worry about it". My response (after only 2 times at the range) is that I have no idea. I mean, some shots look good, some don't, but heck, the problem could obviously be me!

So I spoke with a guy at Smith & Wesson who said he was a revolver fitter for TEN years. I know some of you do NOT want to hear this, but he told me it was absolutely normal and that they often clock the barrel one way or the other until it shoots straight. In fact, he said that probably 60% OR MORE of the revolvers have a canted barrel leaving the factory. He went on to say that whenever people complain, they are happy to have the gun sent back in and, as he said, "we straighten the barrel because they ask us to, then the gun doesn't shoot straight, but if that's what they want us to do, then we do it".

So then I called around 5 gunsmiths in the local area. Some said that was absolutely true, some said it was hogwash...just like on this forum! Some of you say "send it back", some say it is normal. I know, it's my gun, my choice. I guess I have to admit that it bothers me, but if I can get a tight grouping at 'x' yards, I suppose I shouldn't worry about it. Problem is, I am new at this so, needless to say, a tight grouping is not in my near future. So I have no clue what to do. From how many yards out should I expect a decent grouping?

Thoughts appreciated. Thanks. Awesome forum!

 

[Joe in SC]

No expert here, but of the literally dozens of revolvers that I have fired, I can only remember a couple that had the barrel canted enough for me to discern the cant with my naked eye.

Of the ones I have shot, the sight picture with the canted front sight was a distraction that I would not want to put up with on a frequently fired gun. A straight up and down (plumb) front sight blade with a relatively equal amount of light on both sides as viewed though a level and square notch in the rear sight is required for me to shoot well.

As far as my personal feelings an adjustable sight revolver which has to have a leaning front sight to shoot to point of aim is a factory second. I wouldn't care what the factory fitter or any gun smith said. I would want my new revolver fixed if the sight was that noticeable.

 

[Loco Weed]

I would take it back to the range and use a pistol rest or bags for support and test fire it again at say 10 yards and see what you get. If it looks good then try it again at 25 yards. If the accuracy is acceptable to you then keep the gun home and don't sent it back to the factory. If the barrel is truly on where it needs to be and you clock it then you will end up screwing your rear sight way over to compensate and you'll have to live with that instead.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I don’t know what to think about it either. I get curious if they are twisted from off to straight buy the factory for you then maybe the forcing cone gets too stressed and that’s why a straight barrel returned shoots all buggered. Then I worry if they have to loosen it some to straighten it then maybe they just didn’t index it right in the first place and the barrel is going to slowly but surely shoot lose some more each time until it isn’t straight anymore again. I know crush threads work but it really makes me wish we could just go back the old school pinned barrels since I have yet to see one that wasn’t straight. But that would mean going back to the days of soft fitting and more handling and that would drive up prices… I just don’t know what is a real sign of regular quality anymore. I guess at most handgun shooting distances it’s really moot, but it is aggravating to look up close and see the barrel just isn’t quite lined up with the frame. It just spoils the otherwise close in perfection that some of them can still have.

 

[lfurr]

I don’t know what to think about it either. I get curious if they are twisted from off to straight buy the factory for you then maybe the forcing cone gets too stressed and that’s why a straight barrel returned shoots all buggered. Then I worry if they have to loosen it some to straighten it then maybe they just didn’t index it right in the first place and the barrel is going to slowly but surely shoot lose some more each time until it isn’t straight anymore again. I know crush threads work but it really makes me wish we could just go back the old school pinned barrels since I have yet to see one that wasn’t straight. But that would mean going back to the days of soft fitting and more handling and that would drive up prices… I just don’t know what is a real sign of regular quality anymore. I guess at most handgun shooting distances it’s really moot, but it is aggravating to look up close and see the barrel just isn’t quite lined up with the frame. It just spoils the otherwise close in perfection that some of them can still have.

Maximum - you are right....it is aggravating to see the barrel not lined up. Have you seen canted barrels before?

 

[Ron H.]

From how many yards out should I expect a decent grouping?

Sir, a canted barrel should not affect group size unless something else is also wrong. For example, I had a Colt King Cobra whose barrel was visibly canted to the left, and it grouped quite well, just not where I wanted the groups to be.

As noted, the cant will affect point of impact on the target. The shots will print in the opposite direction of the cant. For example, if the front sight is tilted to the left when you're aiming, the group will be off to the right. The immediate fix in this example is to adjust the rear sight to the left until the groups center up.

If you're not confident in your own shooting abilities, have someone who's a good shot shoot the gun for groups. Then you can decide what to do from there.

FWIW, I haven't heard of having the factory "un-cant" a barrel screwing up the gun. I suppose it's possible, but it seems unlikely to me. If it bugs you, send it to the factory to fix.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[Sportsterguy]

I'm not a GS but there no way that revolver would be in my safe until the barrel was properly aligned with the frame! After the first thread started I went back and checked my meager collection of S&W revolvers, all pre lock. NONE were canted.

Personaly think that is BS coming from the Fitter/GS as I've talked to two very good S&W experts who said the barrels should be staight for a proper fit and alignment of the sights. I'm sending off an e-mail to C&S and calling JD Jones from SSK Hand Cannons to get an answer from them. Had a few guns worked over by their shops and trust their opinion. With a good solid rest, no wind or coffee in you and quality ammo you should be able to shoot a 2" group all day from 25 yards if you properly align the sights and squeeze that trigger. I can do this with my 3" 66-2 and no dash 4" 586 all day with .38's.

 

[lfurr]

I'm not a GS but there no way that revolver would be in my safe until the barrel was properly aligned with the frame! After the first thread started I went back and checked my meager collection of S&W revolvers, all pre lock. NONE were canted.

Personaly think that is BS coming from the Fitter/GS as I've talked to two very good S&W experts who said the barrels should be staight for a proper fit and alignment of the sights. I'm sending off an e-mail to C&S and calling JD Jones from SSK Hand Cannons to get an answer from them. Had a few guns worked over by their shops and trust their opinion. With a good solid rest, no wind or coffee in you and quality ammo you should be able to shoot a 2" group all day from 25 yards if you properly align the sights and squeeze that trigger. I can do this with my 3" 66-2 and no dash 4" 586 all day with .38's.

Thanks. I will deinitely look forward to the answers you get back from your contacts. Please be sure to post!

 

[lfurr]

Ya know I just thought of something (and it was mentioned earlier in this thread as well). If the barrel, as is, (canted) is allowing proper alignment between the forcing cone and the chamber(s), wouldn't "straigtening" the barrel ruin that alignment??? Cuz I imagine that if I send it back, and S&W straigtens the barrel, then the forcing cone could move just a hair and then not line up with the chamber(s). Although on second thought, I suppose a "twist" of the barrel wouldn't change the positioning of the forcing cone....kind of like twisting a ring, if you turn the ring, it is still in the same place. Just kind of thinking out loud.

 

[scooter123]

Does your range have benches? Most do, although the benches at some older indoor ranges aren't exactly steady. If the range you are using doesn't have good solid shooting benches, find a range that does. Then take that 686 out and shoot it in single action from a rest.

Here's what you'll need. One sandbag or firmly packed beanbag, a screwdriver that fits the sight adjustment screws, and some Shoot-n-C stickers. If you are shooting at 25 yards or more, a cheap pair of binoculars well help in "peeping" your target. You may also want to take a folding camp stool so you can shoot from a seated position instead of crouching at the bench.

As for ammunition, you'll want to start out shooting a 38 spl. range ammo at this point. The 357 Magnum requires a much higher level of proficiency in recoil management and most new shooters won't group well with Magnums because they are not as consistent controlling recoil as required for precision shooting. The 38 spl. is much easier to control and at this point it will tell you how your gun is shooting.

Now for the technique. First, you do NOT NOT NOT want to allow the barrel to be rested or in contact with any support. Doing that will not allow the barrel to "ring true" and you'll see groups that are double or more what the gun is really capable of. What you want to do is take the revolver in your normal 2 hand hold and place your HANDS on top of that sandbag or beanbag. Then you cock the gun, aim it carefully at the target, then slowly place your finger on the trigger. If needed, refine your aim as perfect as possible if your aim shifted slightly when moving the trigger finger into position. Now SLOWLY increase the pressure on the trigger until the gun fires. Ideally, you want that trigger breaking to be a surprize. You will also want to hold your sights in as near perfect alignment as you can during the trigger squeeze.

Now, about your sighting point. Remember those Shoot-n-C stickers I recomended, most feature a red aiming point at the center. For sighting in a gun I like to use the big 8 inch stickers and use a nickle to scrape off the black to create multiple aiming points, it save having to re-apply a new sticker at eash stage of setting the sights because you just shift to a new aiming point. For each group you want to aim at the exact same spot for each shot in the group. Where the bullets actually hit doesn't matter until you actually start adjusting your sight. Remember, aim at the exact same point for each shot, I've seen a lot of shooters "chasing their hits" and that is NOT how to get your sights zeroed.

Now for adjusting the sights. Fortunately with an adjustable rear sight the "rules" are very easy to remember. If you are shooting low and need to raise the hit point, you RAISE the rear sight. BTW, that means you turn the elevation screw counterclockwise, or unscrew it. If your are shooting left and need to move the hit point to the right, that means that you move the rear sight to the right. BTW, that means that you turn the windage screw in a clockwise direction, or tighten it.

Now group counts. Tradition says you shoot 5 rounds and use the center of that grouping as a guide to adjusting the sight. However that rule isn't cast in stone, I've found that I can shoot just 3 rounds and save myself a bit of ammo. Note, from a rest I can normally put 3 rounds into a cloverleaf of 1 inch or less at 15 yards so I can get by with conserving ammo at this stage. If you are throwing shots wide, you may need to up your round count to 7 or 10.

BTW, if you are throwing shots wide it's an indication that you are "snatching" the trigger or anticipating the recoil. If so, concentrate on RELAXING and letting the trigger break be a surprize. Remember, it's a slow increase in pressure, NOT pulling the trigger.

Distance. I like to start at 30 feet and work the target back in stages as I refine the sighting. As for why, the sights will have to be off by a mile to miss an 8 inch sticker at just 30 feet. It's also pretty easy to shoot a tight group from a rest at 30 feet. Once I have the sight zeroed at 30 feet I'll move back to 45 feet and refine the sighting at that distance. Then it's back to 25 yards where it starts to become a challenge. If you have problems seeing your aiming point on the target at 25 yards, take that nickle and scrape yourself a larger aiming point that you can see.

Now, for what you can expect at 25 yards. For a new shooter using a rest and sandbag support I think that a 5 inch group is a very good result. That is a rather long poke for a handgun using iron sights and ANY deviation in aligning the sights will shot up as a shot that's a bit wide. Quite simply, a 5 inch group using iron sights at 25 yards is brag worthy and NOT something to hang your head over. BTW, when I was younger and had 20/10 eyesight I wouldn't have made this statement, however at 56 I now know better and use Optics for my long range handgunning.

Once you have your sight well zeroed, and have gained a bit of confidence in what you can do from a rest, it's time to take a good look at how your rear sight is adjusted. If you see that the rear sight blade is nearly centered in the body of the sight assembly, LEAVE THAT BARREL COCKED. What it means is that barrel is properly "clocked" and if you straighten the barrel up you may find that you can't get your sight properly zeroed. If the rear sight is all the way in one direction and way off center, contact S&W and ask them to correct how your gun shoots.

Finally, remember that suggestion way at the start of this to put both hands on that support and shoot off that sandbag? There are 2 reasons for doing this. One is that it insures that the barrel is free of any support and ringing "true". The second reason is that bench shooting from this position will nearly duplicate your recoil management when shooting offhad from a standing position. This means that your sight is not only set for shooting from a rest, it's also set near perfect for shooting offhand.

I'll also close by suggesting that you make shooting from a rest a part of your normal range routine. It's a skill that is sadly neglected by most shooters today and as a result they are missing out on a practice method that is superb for refining trigger control in either Single Action or Double Action.

 

[pff]

I know crush threads work but it really makes me wish we could just go back the old school pinned barrels since I have yet to see one that wasn’t straight.

FYI, I have a late 40's M&P snub which has the barrel visibly canted left. I was worried that the front lug might not be holding as tight as it ought to. My S&W guru said it was fine, and done to get the sights on.

It hits dead on to the sights.

Regards,

Pat

 

[MacGuffin]

Been there!

OK, so I am going absolutely nuts over this. New gun owner here. Purchased a 686P, love it. I am one of those with a canted barrel.

Is this admission part of a twelve-step program or something? ...Just kidding! You're cracking me up! Because I can totally relate!

Here's my take on the issue. Let's go beyond a canted barrel. No firearm is perfect. That's right. I said it. I'll say it again. No firearm is perfect. I, too, am one of those OCD types. But, firearms are man-made objects. Therefore, if you look hard enough, you'll find imperfections. I guarantee it! So, now we're talking about degrees.

I am a Smith & Wesson revolver guy through and through. However, one of my absolute favorite revolvers is a pristine Colt Detective Special (mfg. 1967) that is ALMOST perfect. It's only visible flaw is that it has a very slight cant to its barrel, to the left. Maybe 1 - 2 degrees at the most. None of my friends and colleagues that have handled this revolver even noticed the cant! But, of course, I do! What's ironic is that I shoot it just as accurately as my S&Ws. Why? Well, first, like I said, the cant is VERY minor. And, second, the trigger is far and away the smoothest I've ever engaged. Like butter! Its accuracy is well within any level of acceptability that I can achieve on a routine basis.

Send it in to Colt or any other GS? Not a chance on this baby! It's surfaces and finish are immaculate. I'm not going to let someone mar these during repair (and that does happen!) just so I can say the front sight is perfectly straight. It easily shoots straight enough for my liking. And, who knows. An adjustment might throw it off its POA.

IMHO, total perfection is relegated to the celestial world. Not this one.

Like others have said, use a rest at the range and see how consistent and accurate it shoots. If it works well, I'd keep it as is. If it doesn't shoot to POA to your satisfaction, send it in.

Best of luck and welcome to the session!

 

[PA Reb]

Here's my meager two cents ~ I agree with Sportsterguy. If I had a revolver that I could physically see something like this, I would never own it. In my opinion, everything on a handgun that costs what a S&W does should be as close to perfect as humanly possible. A gun that the naked eye can plainly see the barrel is canted doesn't even come close to fulfilling that goal. If they have to cant the barrel to get it to shoot straight then something is wrong and they need to engineer something better. If it were mine, it would, without question, be in a box headed back to the factory.

 

[Duskykiller]

This is simple if the barrel is canted for any reason and putting the barrel back to straight causes the groups not to be properly centered. Smith and Wesson owes you a new gun with the barrel and sights properly regulated. Do not settle for anything less from the factory.

 

[Sportsterguy]

Here's my meager two cents ~ I agree with Sportsterguy. If I had a revolver that I could physically see something like this, I would never own it. In my opinion, everything on a handgun that costs what a S&W does should be as close to perfect as humanly possible. A gun that the naked eye can plainly see the barrel is canted doesn't even come close to fulfilling that goal. If they have to cant the barrel to get it to shoot straight then something is wrong and they need to engineer something better. If it were mine, it would, without question, be in a box headed back to the factory.

Thanks for the back up sir. 1-2 degrees is hard to spot with the naked eye for me BUT when you can visually spot a canted barrel when lining up the sights thats a totally different story. E-mailed C&S (may take a few days for a response) and going to call JD here on Monday. Grew up watching that big guy, and he is one big man, shooting groundhogs with his wildcats when I was a kid back in the hills of Eastern Ohio. Didn't know what he was doing except for blowing them up with his wildcats from long distances which was amazing when you're used to shooting them with .22 LR's from 50 yards on a long shot.

 

[ikor]

In Armorer's School they both tell and show you how to 'clock' a barrel with babbit...or they did many years ago when I went through...still have both the round and square babbit they gave us. The procedure was mainly for fixed sight guns that were off by a 'little bit'. Remember...this was an Armorer's School and Armorers get guns back up and running...thay do not 'gunsmith'. If the front sight was obviously off center on a new gun, back to S&W it would go.

 

[scooter123]

Something I do not understand, why do people think that S&W revolvers are "expensive"? With gasoline pushing 4 dollars a gallon IMO a 700 dollar revolver that will last 100 years or more with proper care is a dirt cheap bargain. I can remember when a new S&W would cost the equivalent of about 400 gallons of gas, today you only get about 175 gallons for the price of a new Smith.

As for the canted barrels, I purchase guns to shoot them, not stare at for untold hours with a magnifying glass. If the gun shoots to POA with the sight centered in it's range I just don't see any reason to complain.

 

[PA Reb]

Something I do not understand, why do people think that S&W revolvers are "expensive"? With gasoline pushing 4 dollars a gallon IMO a 700 dollar revolver that will last 100 years or more with proper care is a dirt cheap bargain. I can remember when a new S&W would cost the equivalent of about 400 gallons of gas, today you only get about 175 gallons for the price of a new Smith.

As for the canted barrels, I purchase guns to shoot them, not stare at for untold hours with a magnifying glass. If the gun shoots to POA with the sight centered in it's range I just don't see any reason to complain.

I'm not trying to be a wise guy here but you must be a corporate attorney or a recent lottery winner if you feel S&W guns (and many others for that matter) aren't expensive. I also don't think the topic being discussed in this thread is about staring at guns " for untold hours with a magnifying glass." I too buy my revolvers to shoot but, like I said before, I wouldn't own one with a noticible cant in the barrel. You / we purchase vehicles to drive but would you not demand a twisted fender on a new vehicle be fixed or would you be happy as long as it went where steered? Your comparison is apples to oranges because in my opinion, $700 or more for a gun is mighty expensive !

 

[blujax01]

I know what you mean. I really have to crank it sideways to correct this "Clocked Glock!"

 

[scooter123]

PA Reb, I've worked in the Automotive industry since 1982 and can tell you that if you subject any auto on the market to the scrutiny that you apparently subject your revolvers to you would be riding horses. Take a close look at the paint on a Mercedes S class and you'll see orange peel. An 80 thousand dollar car and nobody ever seems to complain about a paint job you could get at Earl Shieb.

As for a 700 dollar revolver being cheap, it is cheap when you compare it to the price of almost any other commodity. I can remember when a new small car could be purchased for under 2000 dollars, remember paying 17.9 cents for a gallon of gas, and remember paying less than 2 bucks for a box of 38 spl. Now a small car costs 20 grand, gas is nearly 4 dollars a gallon, and last time I bought 38 spl. it cost 19 dollars a box. You want a real shocker, the new Honda Gold Wing is a 24 THOUSAND DOLLAR motorcycle.

To be blunt, I'm no lottery winner and spending 700 dollars on anything is a bit of a pinch for my wallet. However, when you consider the cost of anything today, 700 dollars for a handgun is actually a bit of a bargain when you consider the value you receive. It's also far far below the threshold price for a truly custom built gun, just look at the prices for a Freedom Arms revolver.

Smith & Wesson revolvers are Production Revolvers and they aren't going to be perfect. Get over it, if they were perfect we couldn't afford them. In terms of value we get guns that work very well and have the potential to last longer than amost any other production product on the market if properly maintained. For the price, that's all I expect.

BTW, bit of a rant here. It happens that one of my revolvers is the model 620. That one doesn't have a canted barrel because the BARREL SHROUD is keyed to the frame. It will also shoot a 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards because of the TENSIONED BARREL. You know what gripes me, what gripes me is that the 620 never saw the development it deserved because of people complaining about the "cost cutting" 2 piece barrels. Now, mount a scope on your "perfect" 686 and go out and see what it can do at 50 yards. Work up your best shooting load for it and it won't come close to what my 620 can do shooting off the shelf commercial ammo. S&W tried to produce a better revolver that didn't have the assembly issues of the older one piece barrels and most didn't want to have anything to do with them. As a result, in order to get a tensioned barrel the price has gone upscale and they are only offered in the Scandium frames, which I find to be too light. Now the only way I can get a steel framed 357 Magnum with a tensioned barrel is by looking for a Dan Wesson, which are NOT cheap at over a grand and quite a bit heavier than a 6 inch model 620 would be.

Point is S&W tried to offer a better product and it wasn't "acceptable" because it was different. If you want perfectly fitted 686's, you'll have to pay for it, IMO as much in relative terms as the Colt Python did back when it was being made. So, make your choice, pay 1200-1500 bucks so that every 686 is perfectly hand fitted or pay about 700 bucks for a 686 that shoots straight. Personally, I'll take the cheaper option and hope that someday S&W will re-think their dropping the 620.