Do you REALLY believe in the 2nd Amendment?

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Yes. Anything short of the ability to fully exercise one's Constitutional Rights is unacceptable. Way to many people have died and sacrificed to protect those Rights. I will not Dis Honor those who have made such sacrifices.

So the past 2A "progress" and "expansion" you were so concerned with losing as you were attacking OC activists for jeopardizing, was actually nothing more than unacceptable no-win dishonor progress and expansion?

Please... doth protest too much.
 
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Just a minute. I'm in the process of nailing down your sour grapes on OC passing.

This is what you previously posted here.


"Texas will not pass Open Carry. Won't happen. In fact this open carry issue most likely will scuttle the very progress we have made since the SCOTUS decision. In fact we will be very lucky to retain the progress we have made to date as the result of OCT's recent actions. They have played right into our opposition's hands. They have given the anti's all of the ammunition they need to stop the progression and expansion of our Second Amendment Rights."


So there you are championing past "progress" and fear mongering over losing it, and then lamenting about OC groups jeopardizing future "expansion" of 2A rights. But when your predictions turn out to be completely wrong and OC passes as well as other 2A "expansion" you scoff at it and imply that anything less than 100% of what the founders intended is a no-win.

Care to explain?

Is that what they call a "gotcha" moment? ;)
 
That's the point about asking if LadyT was so glum about Shall Issue passing. You see, Shall Issue is about requiring a permit to carry. Must be that Shall Issue sweeping the country was also another non-win, right?


Shall issue is not the point. In fact there is no reason for it. You have the Right to own and CARRY a firearm according to the Second Amendment. When you get that conceal carry permit you accept that the Second Amendment is not a Right but nothing more than a privilege granted by the State.

You know HB195 would have passed if it wasn't for an OC activist that made a scene in a House members office, scaring staff and the House Rep. At that point Republicans and Democrats became one and HB195 never saw the light of day.
 
Constitutional carry??? Heavens no.

Mandatory training, licensing and fees, or no soup for you.

And if you can't afford the monetary outlay or do the training, like an elderly person living alone for instance, tough, find a way.

Oh if you can afford a gun you can afford training and license fees.


Right thar it is folks.....It's not about Our Rights....It's about the.......wait for it.....

























.


The Money!!!






*

As in any other government decided issue, jest follow the money.

There's no profit (revenue) in a inalienable Right.

Revenue must be legislated, by tax and privilege. :rolleyes:

It's a sad fact of life....



.
If'n ya want to dance in Texas....Ya got to pay the fiddler! ;)


.
If there's a buck to be made off'n it....It will always be a privilege.


Next step,
Lobby to reduce CHL fees to a level where it is no longer the cash cow it is now and constitutional carry will follow....


In the mean time CC or OC and eat more chicken fried steak !!!


Gig Em Aggies

Hook Em Horns

God Bless Texas.


.
 
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You know HB195 would have passed if it wasn't for an OC activist that made a scene in a House members office, scaring staff and the House Rep. At that point Republicans and Democrats became one and HB195 never saw the light of day.

I don't know that. Based on your track record here of being wrong on all counts I'll ask that you forgive my doubt.

Shall issue is not the point. In fact there is no reason for it. You have the Right to own and CARRY a firearm according to the Second Amendment. When you get that conceal carry permit you accept that the Second Amendment is not a Right but nothing more than a privilege granted by the State.

Being the purist all-or-nothing you present yourself to be, does this mean you refuse to obtain a carry permit?

I share the goal of complete victory no infringements, but wars are fought battle by battle. Freedom loving gun owners won this one, and continue to win in most parts of the country. That's a good thing.
 
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/....And if you can't afford the monetary outlay or do the training, like an elderly person living alone for instance, tough, find a way.

Oh if you can afford a gun you can afford training and license fees.
The unreasonable (far above actual cost) fees for the application, fingerprint and back ground check some states impose can create a financial burden that disproportionately affects some populations - but let's be honest here. These fees are not targeting the elderly, they are targeting poor folks.


Just image what happens if Republicans started getting on the "no unreasonable fee for CCW" bandwagon as a means of making concealed carry permits easier to obtain. It would put the Dems in a very uncomfortable position.

We need to stop playing to the strengths of the anti-gun camp and start taking some positive steps to show the benefit to all people, rather than standing back and guarding our own very extreme right sounding view points to the exclusion of others. Showing those others that they have skin in the game will get us much better results.
 
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You know HB195 would have passed if it wasn't for an OC activist that made a scene in a House members office, scaring staff and the House Rep. At that point Republicans and Democrats became one and HB195 never saw the light of day.
It's a good example of what happens when well meaning but short sighted or misguided start putting what they feel are "God given" rights in front of simple common sense.

Like the various store and restaurant 2A demonstrations, it's guaranteed to backfire.
 
I think of it as providing "context". ;)

Now it's the fault of OC activists that HB195 (Constitutional Carry) didn't become law. Them fellers sure do get a lot of credit.

They just make folks shiver in their pants, they're downright scary :)

open-carry-at-chipotle-opencarrytexas.jpg
 
When I started this thread it had absolutely nothing to do with open carry, and I am sorry I even brought that into the discussion. It really was all about those who claim to be 2nd Amendment supporters but are not too sure that they really believe it is a right that belongs to all of us but rather only to those who they deem to be responsible and trustworthy. Sort of like, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.
 
Yup, terrifying!

Both Texas gubernatorial candidates were so distraught over the public terror of OC demonstrations that they both vocally supported Open Carry during their campaign speeches. The Texas legislature was likewise terrified as they passed OC legislation. And in one final "backfire", the elected governor signed Open Carry into law.

You know... if it were not for OC demonstrations in many states across the country, President Obama would have dismantled the ATF, stopped enforcing the FFL system and convinced Congress to repeal the NFA.


They just make folks shiver in their pants, they're downright scary :)

open-carry-at-chipotle-opencarrytexas.jpg
 
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You know... if it were not for OC demonstrations in many states across the country, President Obama would have dismantled the ATF, stopped enforcing the FFL system and would have convinced Congress to repeal the NFA.
LOL. That's pretty much how it sounds.
 
Yes, I do the only prohibitions I believe in are the following - violent felons, Dishonorably Discharged Veterans - and those that have been involuntarily committed to Mental Institutions
 
When I started this thread it had absolutely nothing to do with open carry, and I am sorry I even brought that into the discussion. It really was all about those who claim to be 2nd Amendment supporters but are not too sure that they really believe it is a right that belongs to all of us but rather only to those who they deem to be responsible and trustworthy. Sort of like, everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.

Give yourself credit for not alluding to flour, sugar or chocolate chips.
 
The 2nd Amendment is a right OF THE PEOPLE, not just of some self identified gun elitists.
One possible definition of an 'elitist' is a person who thinks they are right and others are always wrong. A problem arises when one attempt to characterize others as “elitists” whilst simultaneously saying “and those that disagree with me are wrong!” That's boomerang hypocrisy at its best. But there is a place for simple disagreement, and both points can be debated.

I do believe sincerely in the 2nd Amendment, and have belonged to the NRA for a donkey's life. But that doesn't mean I have to knee-jerk agree with every single opinion that exists about the 2nd A. I'm a pretty rational guy, and can think for myself. So I really don't need anyone to categorize me as an elitist simply because I disagree with them on an issue, especially when I can support my point very effectively. I’m not ‘wrong’ because I’m some “elitist”, in fact I’m not wrong at all.

I am a huge proponent of CCW and think the boom in concealed carry since the early 90's is a great and wonderful thing. I also think openly carrying a rifle or pistol is foolish, selfish, unwarranted, unsafe, aggressive and unnecessarily provocative. I won't go into all the reasons why, I've done that elsewhere on this forum. But I stand by that opinion and belief it is eminently defensible.

I understand there are those who think that somehow their 2nd A rights have been mercilessly trampled unless they are permitted to carry every single type of weapon known to man openly, anywhere, anytime, anyplace and in any way. That's nonsense and a specious argument; it isn’t defensible and simply cannot be rationally made.

No one needs a fully automatic M-60 with ten 100 round belts around their waist. No one needs an M-203 grenade launcher or a 90mm M3. But the way OC proponents scream about what they *think* the 2nd A says, one would believe we should all have these things up to and including a small back pack nuclear device. There are rational limits and for good reason.

The fact is, every right we have given by God and guaranteed by our Constitution has a natural limit. Speech, religion, assembly - they have limits that stop usually where a line exists that says if others or society are grossly offended, harmed or a significant disturbance of the peace is caused, then you can’t do that.

I’ve used these examples before; you can’t walk into a church service on Sunday morning and scream XXXXXXXXXX GOD and all you myth believers!!” at the top of your voice. You will get arrested. You can’t set a tire fire in your back yard and claim “They’re my tires, I can do as I please” because once the smell and smoke affect your neighbors, the police, fire dept. and possibly a city health official will show up and likely fine the snot out of you if not put you in cuffs. You and 30 others can’t ‘flash mob’ stark naked in the middle of the food court in your city’s biggest mall or drop your pants and commit ‘self love’ in a crowded restaurant on Friday night. Why? Because others would be shocked, scared, offended or repulsed. And they would have a right to be. That’s why there are ‘disorderly conduct’ laws.

And frankly, the owning and carrying of firearm have natural limits as well. Would the OC proponent say you should be able to carry a M249 SAW into a polling place on voting day, or into a kindergarten? Does one need their Barrett 50 caliber 82A1 or Glock 18 at the public swimming pool or the secure area of an airport? No? Well, then I guess you agree that firearms carry should have limits. Careful, some on this board might turn on you, call you “Witch!” and try to dunk you.

Sadly, I think a real issue, partially anyway, with OC is that some see it as a permit to laughingly scare the poop out of those who don't understand guns or might not feel comfortable with them. I really don't understand how a person can say they believe in the 2nd A, support it, fight for it, donate to organizations that defend it...then turn around and scream and demand to be able to act in a way that shreds the image of a gun owner and turns away people who might otherwise be inclined to join us by inciting fear or anxiety.

Saying open carry forwards the argument of the 2nd A is textbook sophistry. It’s like some cult saying they can get more members if they scream louder on the street corner or bang harder on someone’s front door til they open; counterproductive at best.

So why do some gun owners think walking into Starbucks or Chipotles wearing a desert tan cerakoted M4 and a 15 round Glock 10mm in hip holster is cool? Are they really saying they just support the 2nd A? No. That’s not the truth.

The truth is the idiots of Open Carry Texas actively enjoy taking the 2nd A and using it as an pretense and excuse to terrorize those they hate (you know, those ‘filthy commie liberals’ that voted for Obama!) and make them wet their Birkenstocks. That’s not a healthy or effective argument for the Right to Bear Arms... again, it’s just the opposite. It will do more harm in the future for the argument than help.

And practically, there is not one single tactical, sensible reason for OC versus CCW. None, not one. No, it isn’t a faster draw. And no, having a coat or jacket flip open in the wind exposing your weapon was NEVER truly an offense of ‘openly carrying’. And no, it is no more constitutional to OC than to CCW. It’s just that some want to . Period. “Because I want to.” That’s it. That’s the real argument here. Fine. Carry openly.

I disagree with it on principal because I love my wife and family too much to set them right next to a target downrange and wait for some fool to shoot at that target (me wearing openly). And I value peace in my community and the ability to talk to folks about guns without shocking or scaring them first. But it is your choice (at least in Texas now). But be aware of what you’re choosing.

Open Carriers make themselves, their wives and their loved ones unwarranted, unnecessary targets in public, putting them downrange in a firefight. They also make themselves little mini-celebrities of the moment, “Oh, look at that guy! He has a gun, Mildred!”, which may tickle the OC’s fancy…until the person seeing them is a Blood, Crip, Mexican Mafia, MS-13, Bandito, Texas Syndicate, Los Zatas, Barrio Azteca, Aryan Circle or Aryan Brotherhood who then says “Oh, look..that dude has a gun, bro..” , meaning something he and the kind he travels with in a pack can take and sell in 30 minutes on the other side of town.

Truth: No one, and I mean NO ONE is afraid of an OC because they’re wearing a gun. No one, period. That is a fallacy and a joke. Today’s street criminals (or super predators if you will) are not even remotely frightened by an OC trotting around with a nickel .45 on his hip.

Other factors OC proponents don't tell you about: you have to maintain the same 540 degree level of perceptual vigilance that a city police officer has to maintain at all times, just like he does, except you’re not wearing a bullet proof vest, you don’t have a radio with a distress button, you don’t have 50 other officers in the city ready to go 150 mph to help you if you’re in trouble, you don’t have the color of law or symbol of authority to potentially shield or protect you (when it does)… you’re just a guy wearing a gun. In the real world of street thugs, gang bangers and urban predators, you’ll simply look like food.

But that’s just an opinon base on experience. I could be wrong, been wrong before. But with my life, my skin and my family, it’d be foolish to take that chance. And just as I’m not into farting in crowded elevators to try to make friends, I’m not into thrusting hard weaponry right under the noses of firearms ‘non-believers’ to win converts or get my jollies off by scaring them. I’m not in 3rd grade, that doesn’t appeal to me.

So no, Vito, I’m not an elitist, just another plain old guy that has some real world experience with carrying guns for about 20 years. And I actually do trust you with all the guns in the world.

What I don’t trust is the moron dressed as Batman who is fixated on a movie theater, the lunatic that thinks about breaking into elementary schools with a stolen M4, the college student who poses for selfies with twin Glocks aimed at the camera, the Hollywood producer’s kid that makes creepy videos… I don’t trust those feral humans (as Massad Ayoob calls them) and if they burst in on me and mine in public, well frankly I don’t want to be next to you if you’re OC. Then I don’t’ trust you, not at all.

If you’re next to me then I’m downrange and I’m sitting by the target that feral human just started staring at. I trust you to have a gun, but not openly because I don’t want that attention. In a gunfight, I want to be the ambusher, not the ambushed.

Heck, I’m a plainclothes LEO and I won’t even set next to uniformed officers at lunch. Why? Because they’re also massive, obvious targets if a fertilizer storm hits without warning. By carrying concealed, I can perhaps do something about it and not be seen.

It isn’t elitism. Its rational facts stacked against what one potentially gains vs. what one potentially loses. Saying “The 2nd A is my permit to carry OC” is simply a choice to ignore one’s responsibility to protect oneself and family, to hamper the gun rights argument and to decide to draw a line in the dirt and say “screw you” to those we ought to be reaching out to.

Long rant, I know. I apologize for the chewed up bandwidth. But please refrain from throwing the term “elitist” at those who disagree on very reasonable grounds just because you don’t like their point of view. I respect your right to choose to OC; I wouldn’t do it and strongly disagree with it as a concept, but that’s all it is. Disagreement.

Have a nice day.
 
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All men are created equal, a right is a right, many use it, others abuse it.

No matter what you think others should or should not do, they all have the same rights. It's good though b/c that way it doesn't matter who you are, what you do for a living and how much money you got.

The key word is responsibility. Some show it some don't. In the end they all have the same right but some just can't handle the responsibility.

I'm glad to see armed people out on the streets. Who knows, maybe one day one of them saves my life or the life of a loved one?!
 
I truly believe that if You are able to own a Firearm You should be able to own any type You want from a 22cal to a M-60 Machine Gun.No Permits or Licenses.
 
The people there felt safer when he came in. Thats good enough for me.
Dont forget about "Being necessary to the security of a free state."
Seems like that part was working just fine when that gentleman walked in.
Jim
 
The right of the people to keep and bear arms is a God given right to all the people. Not just a few elitists. And I am not afraid to use the term "elitist" because I actually know (a) what the word means and (b) because I've lived in countries where the populace were disarmed by an elite group of individuals, for political purposes, based on fear of the populace defending themselves from thugs hired by that very group of elitists.
 
The same folks this thread was started about would question constitutional carry. "Do we really want just anyone carrying?" I've seen it happen time after time. I'm sure someone has posted about here recently.

"Assault weapons," CC, OC, Constitutional, whatever. It's always the same narrative.

convicted felons, adjudicated mentally ill, illegal immigrants, always the same narrative . . .
 
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