Fatal Shooting During CCW Class

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@ChatanoogaPhil



Well, the opposing point could ask the same questions in a similar manner. Others could ask you why you feel you have the right to carry weapons of a certain design and in such a manner that it alarms non-gun folk in your community, folk that have just as much right to feel safe and secure as you do to own firearms. That same person might also say the definition of 'to bear arms' isn’t clearly specified in the Constitution other than what you believe it means and how the courts have interpreted its meaning, and your interpretation is no more or no less valid than a court opinion. It is simply that, an opinion.

When you default back to 'I can and should be allowed to own/carry any type of firearms made by man because the Constitution says so' it can reasonably be argued based upon years of judicial interpretation that you might misunderstand the Constitution and are reading it hyper-liberally for your own purposes.

Yes, you can and should be able to purchase and carry guns, that is legal. But the 2nd Amendment does not clearly say either by exclusion or inclusion spell out exactly HOW one may do so. Therefore when one reads the 2ndA to their advantage and declares"Since there is no language barring me from owning or carrying fully automatic military weapons into any area of society I wish, then I should be able to", one paints oneself into a corner because by that standard of logic, since the 2ndA does not implicitly say that you CAN do the above, then it must follow that you can’t. It’s back to opinion and interpretation, a situation I know you clearly disagree with.

To answer your above questions I have to provide an opinion to an opinion. An opposing view might ask:
"What is it that drives your obsession to tell others 'no you can't feel safe in Starbucks, McDonalds or Six Flags when I want to carry an AR-15 next your children' when there is overwhelming evidence that people have gotten massacred with AR-15's? Yet when you are asked for evidence to support the burden and mandate of ripping away other's right to feel secure in public, you cry foul and default back to your interpretation of the Constitution as only reasonable interpretation and sole justification when that is simply your opinion, not a provable scientific fact. Why?”

That opposing point of view might also say to you that “It is incumbent upon those who wish to place the burden and mandate of enduring the carry firearms in places where the vast majority of fellow Americans don't want those firearms carried, to be able to justify doing so, and to do so with more evidence than the simple opinion of "Because I believe my interpretation of the 2nd Amendment says I can."

Again, I'm not taking sides. I'm simply pointing out that the "Because the 2ndA says so" argument is circular. You say you’re right and others are wrong and the foundation of that argument is based upon your opinion of what the 2nd Amendment says along with anecdotal evidence and stats that favor your side. Those that tell you you’re wrong and they are right are also basing that argument on what their opinion of the 2nd Amendment says coupled with anecdotal evidence and stats favoring their side.

You cannot solve this here. No one on either side can convince anyone here. I get that you’re passionate and you believe you’re right, but no more so than others with differing opinions do. I respect your opinion and your right to have your opinion. But I don't think because other folks on this forum have a differing point of view they're hysterical or elitist. I've read thoughtful points on both sides, and knee jerk attacks on both sides. Nothing's changed anyone's mind.

Charlie Rangel? Hillary Clinton? Michael Bloomberg, Joe Biden, Barack Obama? Yeah, those are bungling, self-obsessed, hypocritical elitists that are the worst form of lying tyrants our nation has produced in generations. But a simple post asking a differing question on this forum hardly meets that standard. I have yet to read anyone here say that guns should be banned, confiscated, registered or limited only to elected officials, celebrities or the wealthy. We’re all firearms enthusiast here and I think there’s a heck of a lot more common ground than not.

Having said that, I wouldn't open a discussion about abortion or religion on this forum either and frankly I think the topic of whether any qualifiers should be in place for firearms purchase / ownership / carry fits into the same type of polarizing catagories mentioned above.

It’s just unresolvable here.

I base my opinion on common sense. And people walking around like they're rambo are just trying to make a statement. Lots of people welcome OC in Texas because it removes the penalty for accidentally exposing your concealed firearm. Makes perfect sense to me. If Texas wants to allow people to walk around with clearly displayed weapons, that's the choice of Texas. I could care less. As I said, we have it here in PA and I rarely see it.

But they can deny it all they want, MOST (not all) are looking to make a statement. In this day and age, if you walk around with an assault "type" weapon in public, you are an idiot, and inconsiderate of others. I know an OC'er here in PA who got upset that the school wouldn't let him into the building to pick up his kid with his Glock on his hip. Of course, it was winter and he just happened to leave his jacket in the car. Sure, he did.
 
The devil is in the details, but of course, being a retired LEO, you knew that part . . .

What's missing? He wanted CC in Texas because he was prohibited from carrying a weapon, either concealed or open since the "victory" required a carry permit to carry openly. He didn't get what he wanted. He didn't consider it a victory. And his misdemeanor theft charge is when he was 17 and surely knew better. So he lost the ability to carry a pistol and he was looking for a loophole to get around that.

You would think they could have found a better spokesman. Guess they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
 
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What's missing? He wanted CC in Texas because he was prohibited from carrying a weapon, either concealed or open since the "victory" required a carry permit to carry openly. He didn't get what he wanted. He didn't consider it a victory. And his misdemeanor theft charge is when he was 17 and surely knew better. So he lost the ability to carry a pistol and he was looking for a loophole to get around that.

You would think they could have found a better spokesman. Guess they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Well, officer, this was your original comment (emphasis added):

because he was prohibited from owning handguns since he had a criminal record.

A small but significant detail. Lots of people like to gloss over details and use words that aren't really accurate, but I'm sure you've otherwise always represented the facts of this story, along with any other anecdotes you may pass along, as truthfully as possible.

In an ode to @Twitter, #wordshavemeaning . . .
 
Kmb,

A while back I spent a fair amount of time correcting your misstatements about Kory Watkins. Now you're at it again. Why continue to make things up rather than simply state the facts?

Besides, trying to make a statewide victory about one man is silly. Kory was a leader of one OC group of many, and was one Texan among countless Texans, including both gubernatorial candidates, who supported OC which drove the Texas legislature to act.
 
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Kmb,

A while back I spent a fair amount of time correcting your misstatements about Kory Watkins. Now you're at it again. Why continue to make things up rather than simply state the facts?

Besides, trying to make a statewide victory about one man is silly. Kory was a leader of one OC group of many, and was one Texan among countless Texans, including both gubernatorial candidates, who supported OC which drove the Texas legislature to act.

I don't recall the details of that exchange, but what difference does it make? It's like correcting my improper use of the word "their" when it should have been "there". Was I so off? Kory Watkins was prohibited from carrying a handgun due to a criminal conviction. His goal was to get constitutional carry so he could. He did not view the OC "victory" as one for him, and judging by other posts on other threads about OC in Texas, not a whole lot of it is being seen. What is being seen is the new 30-07 signs advising those who are OC'ing they they are not welcome in the establishment.


Just because I own guns, doesn't mean these idiots speak for me.
 
Well, officer, this was your original comment (emphasis added):



A small but significant detail. Lots of people like to gloss over details and use words that aren't really accurate, but I'm sure you've otherwise always represented the facts of this story, along with any other anecdotes you may pass along, as truthfully as possible.

In an ode to @Twitter, #wordshavemeaning . . .

Yeah. Like you refered to me as an old man who waddles into a coffee shop to exchange war stories with local cops, when I'm younger than you, fitter than you (judging by your profile pic) and the only words I ever say to local cops is "good morning".
 
I don't recall the details of that exchange, but what difference does it make?

Let me remind you and answer your question.

The Texas OC activists were led by a guy with a felony record

After you were corrected you posted this.

You're right. Not a felon.

What difference does it make? Perhaps if you remembered your previous misinformation you would't keep piling more misinformation on top of it. Ya think?

What I found particularly puzzling is that you were criticizing a guy with a rifle on his shoulder who was on camera and in the media for months, and at the same time claiming he was a convicted felon. How do you reconcile that thinking?
 
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Phil,

It's lookin more and more that a few's bona fide,

is more and more like a red herring. ;):D

Dave


Most of the disagreeable sorts here....Have made no friends to speak of.

I jest wonder if anyone here has met any of these folks in person
and would vouch for their character? They're sure not showing any here abouts.


I just kinda doubt it.


.
 
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Let me remind you and answer your question.



After you were corrected you posted this.



What difference does it make? Perhaps if you remembered your previous misinformation you would't keep piling more misinformation on top of it. Ya think?

What I found particularly puzzling is that you were criticizing a guy with a rifle on his shoulder who was on camera and in the media for months, and at the same time claiming he was a convicted felon. How do you reconcile that thinking?

Because for all I knew, in Texas, a felony conviction doesn't bar you from having a long gun. Or maybe it was an Airsoft. Some groups are using those to make a point when hey can't carry guns. I made a small mistake regarding his criminal history. And since when in this thread, did I call him a felon? He was arrested for being in possession of stolen property, and as far as I can recall, there had been a string of break ins in the area. Whether he was guilty of those or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is his criminal past (misdemeanors ARE crimes) prohibits him from carrying a handgun, concealed or not. And he wanted a CC so he could. But he didn't get that.

And of all those millions of Texans and maybe dozens of groups, the fact that Tarrant County OC picked that clown as a spokesman just seems very foolish. Although the applicant pool was probably pretty shallow to begin with.
 
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Because for all I knew, in Texas, a felony conviction doesn't bar you from having a long gun. Or maybe it was an Airsoft. Some groups are using those to make a point when hey can't carry guns. I made a small mistake regarding his criminal history. And since when in this thread, did I call him a felon? He was arrested for being in possession of stolen property, and as far as I can recall, there had been a string of break ins in the area. Whether he was guilty of those or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is his criminal past (misdemeanors ARE crimes) prohibits him from carrying a handgun, concealed or not. And he wanted a CC so he could. But he didn't get that.

And of all those millions of Texans and maybe dozens of groups, the fact that Tarrant County OC picked that clown as a spokesman just seems very foolish. Although the applicant pool was probably pretty shallow to begin with.
Well, I wouldn't have spent the time harassing kbm on such a minor point, but y'all did. The first bolded sentence is obvious. The second was solicited.
 
Because for all I knew, in Texas, a felony conviction doesn't bar you from having a long gun.

Oh. So you thought a felon in Texas walking around in public with an AK on his shoulder was exempt from federal law. That explains it...
 
Oh. So you thought a felon in Texas walking around in public with an AK on his shoulder was exempt from federal law. That explains it...

Phil, let it go. You're splitting hairs here. I don't recall every second of every conversation I had on one of many gun forums I belong to, especially from months ago. For all I know, I just used the word felon in place of criminal out of habit. Because he IS a criminal. He committed a crime and was convicted and for that, he can't carry a handgun. In THIS thread, since you corrected my label of him like 8 months ago, did I call him a felon? Or did I say his criminal history prevented him from carrying a handgun? Yes, I know I said "owning a handgun", at first because I'm not familiar with Texas gun laws, but can we agree that this guy's criminal conviction for stealing from people (making him a first class scumbag, in my opinion) prohibits him from CARRYING a handgun in Texas, and that he wanted CC to get around that? Or do you REALLY think that he was putting in all that time so OTHERS could openly carry handguns, but not HIM?
 
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Phil, let it go. You're splitting hairs here. I don't recall every second of every conversation I had on one of many gun forums I belong to, especially from months ago.

Can't remember? It was just 5 seconds ago you said that for all you knew felons in Texas could walk around with an AK on their shoulder exempt from federal law. Because for all I knew, in Texas, a felony conviction doesn't bar you from having a long gun. Never mind. You've probably already forgotten. Mandatory schooling on gun laws? Physician heal thyself.
 
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Phil, let it go. You're splitting hairs here. I don't recall every second of every conversation I had on one of many gun forums I belong to, especially from months ago. For all I know, I just used the word felon in place of criminal out of habit. Because he IS a criminal. He committed a crime and was convicted and for that, he can't carry a handgun. In THIS thread, since you corrected my label of him like 8 months ago, did I call him a felon? Or did I say his criminal history prevented him from carrying a handgun? Yes, I know I said "owning a handgun", at first because I'm not familiar with Texas gun laws, but can we agree that this guy's criminal conviction for stealing from people (making him a first class scumbag, in my opinion) prohibits him from CARRYING a handgun in Texas, and that he wanted CC to get around that? Or do ty REALLy think that he was putting in all that time so OTHERS could openly carry handguns, but not HIM?

Actually, if you had read the link I provided, or researched this even minimally, you would know that he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor, received an 18 month deferred adjudication, and the offense has since been removed from his official record, the record which is unavailable to anyone but law enforcement. I suspect that the fact that he actually pleaded guilty is the reason for being denied a Texas CCW permit. Even if that had been a felony, the deferred adjudication would have allowed him to legally possess firearms under federal law, which if you're talking about legally possessing firearms, is the only law that really counts. State laws have been generally more permissive than federal law. As an example, until very recently, Missouri had no law against previously convicted felons possessing long guns. We still saw a bunch of people convicted in Missouri for illegally possessing long guns, but it occurred in federal court. Surely a retired police officer has arrested many, many people who ended up in federal court for illegally possessing a firearm. Further, if you think stealing a set of speakers and some CD's from a truck 16 years ago when you're 17 years old makes you a "scumbag," so be it. Some of us believe in the power of rehabilitation and reformation . . .
 
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Wait, what? I now have serious doubts about the badge icon you display . . .

No reason to doubt. If I was gonna lie I'd say I was an FBI agent or something. Nope. Just a beat cop from Brooklyn. And honestly not fully versed in federal law since I only enforced NY law. But let's just keep harping on such a small detail, why don't we. Only people I saw carrying long guns in Brooklyn were wearing uniforms.
 
Actually, if you had read the link I provided, or researched this even minimally, you would know that he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor, received an 18 month deferred adjudication, and the offense has since been removed from his official record, the record which is unavailable to anyone but law enforcement. I suspect that the fact that he actually pleaded guilty is the reason for being denied a Texas CCW permit. Even if that had been a felony, the deferred adjudication would have allowed him to legally possess firearms under federal law, which if you're talking about legally possessing firearms, is the only law that really counts. State laws have been generally more permissive than federal law. As an example, until very recently, Missouri had no law against previously convicted felons possessing long guns. We still saw a bunch of people convicted in Missouri for illegally possessing long guns, but it occurred in federal court. Surely a retired police officer has arrested many, many people who ended up in federal court for illegally possessing a firearm. Further, if you think stealing a set of speakers and some CD's from a truck 16 years ago when you're 17 years old makes you a "scumbag," so be it. Some of us believe in the power of rehabilitation and reformation . . .

If he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor, then he was charged with a felony. And the 18 month adjudication is pretty standard for anybody under 18. Doesn't mean he's a good guy. If he did the crime a year later that would have not been an option. It's not like the judge looked at him and saw the good in him.

And I made more than my share of gun collars. Never wound up in in federal court. Not even once. You think when some gang banger gets locked up in Brooklyn that it makes it way to federal court? Maybe it's because DA's generally plead out about 95% of their cases. Doesn't make the guys I locked up any better people because they took a plea deal, just like it doesn't make this clown a decent guy either. He took a plea when he was a kid and now he doesn't like the consequences now that he's some Chairborne Ranger who wants to carry a handgun. Boo Hoo

How anybody can support that clown is beyond me.
 
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No reason to doubt. If I was gonna lie I'd say I was an FBI agent or something. Nope. Just a beat cop from Brooklyn. And honestly not fully versed in federal law since I only enforced NY law. But let's just keep harping on such a small detail, why don't we. Only people I saw carrying long guns in Brooklyn were wearing uniforms.

A career police officer in Brooklyn who never saw a suspect with a long gun? I ran a search for "Brooklyn man with shotgun" and every story on the first page was a different arrest of a man with a shotgun . . .
 
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