Fixing up a .32-20

I continue to think that the problem is with sideplate plunger. The next picture is what I call Orlon sideplate, and the following picture is what I call MLP (my initials) sideplate.

mikepriwer-albums-mlp21-picture28737-orlon-sideplate.jpeg


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Unfortunately their rotations are 90 degree out of sync with each other. There is a difference in the two plungers. the difference is that the Orlon plunger has a tilt to it, as though it is not straight in its hole, or the hole is worn out of round. The MLP plunger looks to be sitting straighter.

If the plunger is crooked in the hole, then when the back edge of the hand presses against the plunger, as the trigger is being pulled, it will induce a drag coming from the sideways component of the force of the hand against the plunger.

Perhaps you can try moving the end of the plunger from side to side, to see if there is any play, or to sense if the plunger hole is worn. The plunger in the MLP sideplate has no significant side-to-side play.

Regards, Mike
 
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Hi Mike,

There’s a little back and forth wobble. I think it’s from the hole in front of the arm, rather than the hole the spring sits in.
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Here you can see a slight gap to the right of the plunger. I don’t think it’s my doing, as the only thing I’ve used on the hole is Flitz. Maybe I took too much material off the plunger, but given the marks on it something needed to be done.
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Here you can perhaps see the angle of the hole better.

What are my options? I could purchase a new sideplate and see if its plunger is any better, or I could try and fit the sideplate entire.

If I did the latter, I’d need to try and rust blue it to match, which would be a pain. Or I could live with it.
 
Nearby serial number

A couple weeks ago I bought a 32 w.c.f. ctg. {32-20) revolver at local gunshow. It is a 4 inch, looks reblued as hammer and trigger are shiney, not case hardened finish. Was wondering the year, sn: 71975. I think fairly early. Heavy pull both single and double action. I will most likely change some springs in it to make it a more enjoyable shooter. This revolver belonged to a friend that recently passed and another friend is selling his collection for the widow.

The nearest s/n to yours in my database is 71930. It's a blue 5 inch target model shipped 11/1/1916. It had a Marble/Payne bead front sight It was factory re-barreled to the 5" (from ?) in November, 1947. Stocks are numbered to the gun. The owner I got this info from in 1992 lived in Iowa City, IA. Info was from a Jinks letter.
 
Seems like the problem is related to either the hand, or the sideplate plunger, or some interaction between the two.

Before you go further, make sure that the trigger stud is tight.

Now, go back to the step where you add the hand. Take out the hand, and with the sideplate off, get the trigger feel of cycling it several times. Then, add the hand, but not the sideplate. Use a finger to gently hold the hand foreward, and with the other hand, cycle the trigger several times, getting the feel of it again. Are they about the same, or has it tightened up significantly. If it does, then something about the hand is not right.

About now, make sure that the hand is fully seated onto the trigger.

Next, put the sideplate on, and tighten up the screws. Then, back each off 1 full turn. Then, rap the frame as though to remove the sideplate, but all you want it to do is rise up to the loosened screws.

Now, cycle the gun with the trigger pull gage, and note what has happened. If it's still okay, tighten each screw 1/2 a turn, and try again. You are looking to find out if the sideplate, when fully tight, is touching the hand, that would cause binding.

Later, Mike
 
Hi Mike,

With just the hand in place, there’s a little roughness at the start as the hand enters the window (that isn’t present without the hand), but once the hand in the window there’s no noticeable difference to the trigger pull.

With the screws loosened one full turn, the pull is about 5lb 6oz. With them loosened 1/2 turn, it’s about 5lb 2-4oz (hard to get a good read with no trigger or mainspring). With them fully tightened down, it’s about 5 lbs (I’m guessing it drops slightly because there’s less room for the parts to wiggle back and forth?). Finally, with the hand and sideplate removed, it takes about 3lb 2 oz to pull the trigger, and about the same with the sideplate (sans plunger) added.

While the plunger is certainly adding some pull weight (which makes sense, given the two springs involved), nothing seem to be binding against the sideplate. Unfortunately I don’t have a basis for comparison to tell if adding ~2lbs is normal for the sideplate plunger or not.


Edit: There were some machine marks on the hand, under the sticky-outie part that pushes up on the ratchet teeth. With them polished out, the roughness at the start of the pull is gone.
 
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Hello friends,

As I wait for my thread repair file I decided to fit the stocks Shotguncoach sent. I was worried I’d damage them irreparably, but they turned out ok. I still need to stain the parts I sanded, but they look and feel a lot better than the old ones.
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I removed a litle too much material from the right stock while trying to get it to rotate forwards slightly, but fortunately it’s still tight enough to stay on just via friction (sans screw). The stocks are proud in spots, namely the rear of the butt and under the trigger guard, but I’ve decided to leave them that way for now.
 
Hello friends,

My thread repair file arrived today! As planned, I used my electric drill to take the external diameter of the threads to .150”, and used the file to sharpen them back to shape. I honestly didn’t think it would work, but having done it now I can say with confidence that it can be done.
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The new screw fits just fine in the frame. The edges of the head are chewed up from sitting in the vise/drill, but that’s nothing some sandpaper and cold blue can’t fix.

Having done it now, I can also say with confidence that the smart move is to get the frame tapped for 8-32 and just use a modern strain screw. While this violates the “alter the cheapest part” rule, it’s easier than altering the screw and allows you to use modern strain screws or 8-32 set screws, which are far more plentiful.
 
I'll wait and see how far you get, before offering any more comments.

Regards, Mike

Thanks Mike! You’ve been a huge help and I appreciate any and all feedback and advice you have.

Even with the new strain screw, the Wolff mainspring still touches the rebound housing when cocked. The stock strain screw extends about .320” into the frame, while the new one is closer to .330”. Longer, but not long enough. All that filing for not.

With all the bits (and Wolff mainspring and 15lb rebound) in, SA is about 7.5 lbs, while DA is just shy of 10 lbs. Trigger return hangs up on the same old spot, but only if released slowly, and it doesn’t seem to get stuck fully anymore.

With the stock springs in, SA is about 6.5 lbs while DA exceeds my 12 lb trigger pull gauge. The stock mainspring is still a bear and difficult to cock one-handed.

I tried one last combo: stock rebound spring and Wolff mainspring with a primer on top of the strainscrew. The mainspring unfortunately still hits the rebound housing even with the primer cup. SA comes out to 7.5 lbs, while DA is about 11.5 lbs. No trigger return issues with the stock rebound spring.

I’m about out of ideas. I could knock the edge off the rebound housing, although that somehow seems like a bad idea, and wouldn’t fix the sticky trigger return. The trigger pull, at least, is noticeably smoother than when we began, and I can fully disassemble the revolver in only a minute or two now.
 
Can you get a picture, with the side-plate off, of the hammer pulled into full single action? I'd like to see where he main spring is hitting.

Regards, Mike

Hi Mike,

Here’s what it looks like when cocked. I took the rebound spring out to prevent undue pressures on the pins.
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If you have an extra factory main spring, you can "wasp waist" it by filing it thinner. Make sure to polish out any file marks, as these are stressors where the spring could fracture.

Thanks Muley! I don’t have one lying around but it would be easy to acquire.

I was doing some Googling and it looks like j frame rebound housings all have that same corner removed, presumably so they clear the coil spring. So it can’t be that crucial, right?
 
I'll take the side-plate off one of my guns, and get a picture. I think, but want to be sure, that the curvature of the spring is not right, and it's probably due to the main spring tension screw being too short. It's also possible that you have the wrong spring.

Keep in mind that, when the gun was shipped, it didn't have this problem. Something has changed, and the job is to find out what changed.

Regards, Mike
 
I'll take the side-plate off one of my guns, and get a picture. I think, but want to be sure, that the curvature of the spring is not right, and it's probably due to the main spring tension screw being too short. It's also possible that you have the wrong spring.

Keep in mind that, when the gun was shipped, it didn't have this problem. Something has changed, and the job is to find out what changed.

Regards, Mike

Hi Mike,

Thank you! Here’s a picture of the gun cocked with the beastly stock mainspring (as you can see it doesn’t touch either the hammer or rebound housing), as well as a picture of the mainsprings next to each other: stock on top, Wolff on bottom. It’s hard to tell due to the different curvatures, but the Wolff might be a smidgen shorter?
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I think if the Wolff mainspring (and 15lb rebound spring) is dropping the DA pull to 10lbs the strength is probably about correct, even if the length is too short. However, with the stock springs SA shouldn’t be 6.5 lbs and DA shouldn’t be >12 lbs. That’s far too heavy.

I’m thinking Muley is right and I should try another mainspring, either another stock mainspring or a Wolff Type 1 standard power mainspring.
 
Here is a picture of one of mine, sans the side-plate.

mikepriwer-albums-mlp21-picture28751-694105-single-action-ready.jpg


The spring sets approximately in the middle of the gap between hammer and the rebound slide. I think your spring looks too thick,. I took some measurements of the thickness of the spring, approximately every 1/2" - approximately. Here they are.

1. 0295 just below the two stirrup prongs
2. 0.355
3. 0.405 at the bend
4. 0.445
5. 0.480
6. 0;575,
7. 0.660 thickest part at the bottom.

I agree with Gil in that I would try another spring, and particularly if yours is much thicker than mine. There is still the issue of why the triigger does not retreat properly. Typically that happens when the rebound slide spring has been shortened - one or more turns of the spring have been cut off.

You can experiment by taking eveything out of the lockwork except the trigger and rebound slide,with its spring. Then add back the hammer and mainspring, and then finally the hand. At each step of the way, do it first w/o the sideplate, and then with the sideplate on.

I continue to think that there is something else wrong here, but we don't seem to be proceeding methodically.

Maybe all of the corrosion is causing a lot of different problems. The inside of the lockwork does resemble a minefield!

Mike
 
Hi Mike,

Thank you!

Here’s a pic of the length of the stock mainspring; as you can see it extends a tad above the base of the bolt.
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Here’s a pic of the Wolff mainspring in the same place from the same angle; it terminates right at the base of the bolt. My guess is that difference in length accounts for the Wolff mainspring’s contact with the rebound housing.
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My stock mainspring is:
0.037” (at its thinnest below the stirrup prongs)
0.075” (at its thickest toward the base)
So it seems it’s definitely beefier than yours.

Here’s a picture of the stock return spring (left) and the Wolff 15 lb return spring (right). The stock return spring is beefy as well.
fgGLQXM.jpeg

I just ordered from fleabay the springs and a few miscellaneous parts off a Model 14. I imagine they should be compatible, and given the Model 14 is a target model hopefully lighter as well.

As I wait for them to arrive I’ll keep playing with the rebound issue. I agree that there’s probably another issue, although I’m not sure whether we’re in ‘Occam’s Razor’ territory or ‘Hickam’s Dictum’ territory.
 
The rebound issue only happens when the cylinder, hand, sideolate, and cylinder stop are all in place.

My best guess is still that, as the hand moves down it provides downward pressure on the cylinder, as the cylinder stop tries to move forward. The additional pressure makes it difficult for the cylinder stop to complete it’s movement, which causes the binding.
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Contributing to this is that this is the same point as the maximum resistance the trigger meets against the cylinder stop as the trigger ledge rotates upwards.
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I have no idea how you might fix this, however, besides polishing the entire front of the hand, as well as the cylinder stop, cylinder stop notches, and anywhere else that rubs.

Edit: I started thinking maybe the problem isn’t the parts aren’t smooth enough, but that the cylinder is moving too much. It’s not moving a lot, but just enough to cause it to move from hand/cylinder stop pressure and stick. Dryfiring with a .006” feeler shoved between the barrel and cylinder to prevent endshake and close the gap entirely, while it occasionally wouldn’t rotate (not enough endshake is my guess) the trigger return seemed better. I’ve ordered endshake shims from Lance.
 
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There are several possibilities when talking about a trigger that does not fully return when releasing it fully after firing.

When the trigger releases the hammer, it immediately flies forward, detonating the cartridge. It goes all the way forward, and it's face is actually resting on the frame. And, the firing pin is sticking into the cylinder area. And, the hammer block is fully retreated into the side plate. And he hand has to be drawn down, and the cylinder stop reset, and the hammer block slid into place. All of this has to be corrected upon release of the trigger.

As the trigger is released, the trigger rebound slide moves forward. At some point, the bump on the top of the rebound slide contacts the bottom of the hammer, causing it to start to retreat, pulling the firing pin out of the chamber. Simultaneously, as the trigger is being released, it has to push past the cylinder stop. It does this not by droping the cylinder stop, but by pushing it forwards. At some point, the pushing is done, and the cylinder stop moves backward, but not downward or upward. As the trigger is being released, it pulls the hand down - it does not drop by itself. The hand itself has previously been pushed tight against the frame, by the hammer block plunger in the sideplate. The power necessary to pull the hand down is coming from the rebound slide spring. And lastly, the hammer block leaf spring has to completely rise up, letting the hammer block flange slide between the frame and the trigger.

So, a question is - when the trigger stops its retreat, what is the status of the lockwork? Has the firing pin completely retreated? Has the cylinder stop completed its forward movement, and come back to its normal position? If you pull just a bit on the trigger, does the firing pin start to come back into the cylinder area?

You can see that there is a lot of things happenings, that can contribute to a premature stop of the slow trigger retreat.

Study the action carefully of all this activity, and let us know what you think.

Regards, Mike
 
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