Formal Training Is Bad?

Smoke

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On another forum I read occasionally someone posted a thread about the desirability of aquiring professional training with the following article linked.

The Moat Group ? Without Training, You Are Just Pretending

What surprised me as the backlash against the concept of formal training that the article produced.

Maybe I read it wrong but I get the author as saying if you’re going to carry a firearm you need a little more than basic firearms safety training. But most respondents said that the concept of formal training was unnecessary and elitist.

To me carrying a gun is serious business and I want all the instruction I can get. Am I the weird one?
 
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No, you aren't weird. I'm fine with formal training for those who can afford it. I can't and will never be able to, but for those who can, more power to you.
 
perhaps a little weird ...
I will say that formal training helps more than it hurts.
but it can hurt.
Your environment is never all that realistic.
there are no cars traveling through the middle of your gun fight, the targets sit still on the hangers and the cops don't show up to arrest the survivors and sort it out later.
with these, and other fun filled variables that just cannot be reproduced on a controlled range, you won't know how to deal with them any better than a total greenhorn.

That aside ... you will learn how to get metal on meat with greater speed and accuracy than without it ... unless variables not dealt with beforehand prevent it. Its still an up side though
 
No.

YOU are not the weird one.

As an aside, I am adamant in my belief knowing WHEN to shoot is far more important than HOW to shoot. (Yes, I can argue they are equally important, too.)

Be safe.

On another forum I read occasionally someone posted a thread about the desirability of aquiring professional training with the following article linked.

The Moat Group ? Without Training, You Are Just Pretending

What surprised me as the backlash against the concept of formal training that the article produced.

Maybe I read it wrong but I get the author as saying if you’re going to carry a firearm you need a little more than basic firearms safety training. But most respondents said that the concept of formal training was unnecessary and elitist.

To me carrying a gun is serious business and I want all the instruction I can get. Am I the weird one?
 
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Interesting "group", just from reading their website & FAQ. Their motto, We have an internal group motto….”Who we are, matters not. What we do, remains unseen. How we do it, is everything.” is ... interesting.

Anyway, I can see the title being a bit offensive to the average gun owner who sees it.

Look at it from a larger perspective, though. Lots of folks own guitars, but how many of them are musicians, or could sit in with accomplished musicians? How many do well when alone, but fall apart if someone just watches them?

Lots of folks own and drive cars, but how many have the training & experience gained in even the basic EVOC driving classes LE is usually required to attend?

It's not about having the equipment in the above examples, but in being trained to actually use the equipment.

In the case of the driving skills, it covers being able to safely and effectively operate the cars under stressful and emergency conditions. Of course, it also imparts some "basic" skills that many cops find just as handy when driving their own family cars, such as more efficient awareness, turning, parking and displacement/avoidance maneuvers.

I remember the first time I used a displacement maneuver, it wasn't in my patrol car, but in my family car, with my family riding in it. If I'd tried to use the brakes to avoid another car's unexpected and dangerous turning action (which is "normal" for many average drivers), we'd have been hit and probably injured.

As it was, I automatically avoided being hit by the other car, and my family was more stunned by how I'd quickly avoided the collision ... and without acting in a way that endangered any other drivers. I'd been aware of the car creating the hazard, and yet also aware of everywhere else around our car. It was literally over before my family had had the time to barely recognize the impending threat. I went and thanked that driving instructor when I returned to work. ;)

So ... about firearms being lawfully carried in the role of dedicated defensive weapons ...

Getting some training beyond the basic firearms safety course level often involves more than just shooting the gun for target accuracy in a different environment.

Some basic knowledge & understanding of the laws relating to the use of force may be involved, and may prove to be helpful. It can be amazing what the average law abiding citizen doesn't know about the laws regarding such things. Knowing when NOT to use deadly force can help keep you out of prison. :eek:

Understanding what stress can do to you in an unexpected, dynamic, chaotic and rapidly evolving situation involving the potential for serious bodily injury or death can be helpful, too. Sheer physical stress is a different thing than experiencing a hormonal fear response.

Understanding (and developing) mindset can be helpful.

Even the potential for learning simpler and/or more effective ways to safely & effectively draw, present, handle, manipulate and shoot a handgun is helpful, too. A hands-on instructor can often see things we do that we'd never be able to see for ourselves.

Getting some different (better?) insight into carry methods and related gear (magazine/speedloader carriers) may be very handy. Potentially learning some advantages & disadvantages of different holsters, and their proper use under less-than-ideal circumstances, has opened the eyes of some folks.

The cost? Probably not "cheap", of course. It not only means the cost of the class, but also time away from family (and maybe work), as well as travel, lodging & food expenses.

Then, there's the understandable concern about choosing a "good" venue & instructor(s).

Fortunately, there are seemingly an ever-growing number of sources from which to gain such training. Sometimes checking the bulletin board of a local range/gunstore might reveal an unexpectedly affordable 1 or 2 day class offered locally. Maybe the range/store staff might have some experience with, or knowledge of, the person/people involved with the class. Seems to be a lot of NRA trained instructors popping up.

One last comment.

One of the advantages of receiving proper training, and continuing to properly practice it, is to help try to inoculate yourself against the adverse effects of stress during a crisis situation. Training can give you an ingrained proper reaction and a way to function under stress. Defaulting to "instinct", instead of reacting in a trained way to resolve an unexpected situation, may not have the desired results.

No guarantees in life, though.

Shooting is a perishable skill.

Being able to make good decisions, using sound judgment under duress and stress (mental & physical) ... while having an ingrained trained skillset upon which to draw ... can't be a bad thing, can it? ;)

Hey, just some thoughts.

Happy New Year everyone. :)
 
The title is offensive... "pretending", really? That page goes on to say, "I am a firm believer that without training on the weapon you carry…you are MORE dangerous to yourself and loved ones than you were when you didn’t have one." This is just self-serving marketing hype and blather.

We frequently read in the news about people successfully defending themselves with a gun--do you think most of them have the training this website is pushing? (I doubt it.) And how often do we read about people hurting themselves and loved ones by ineffective use of a gun? Well mostly I just hear that about trained police officers, not private citizens. (No offense intended to the LEO's here. I'm just commenting on the frequency of news stories about innocent bystanders getting shot by police in places such as NYC.)

I've had training. I want more training. The bottom line is that even without more training, I'd rather be armed than not.
 
Smoke

As a professional firearms and use of force trainer for citizens for 40 years and a retired LE instructor ranging from raw recruits to SWAT teams for 30 years, I will offer this.
There are different tiers of skill development, basic, intermediate, advanced & high speed.....it depends on who you are, what your goals are and what kind for weapon system/platform you are using.
The most critical aspect and common denominator regardless of what your skill level is, is knowing the legal aspects of implementing lethal and less lethal force.
I trained thousands of officers over my career who implemented some level of force every shift they worked, and with the litigation crazy society we operate in nowadays, that is a hazard of the profession.
Training citizens to implement lethal and less lethal force is every bit as critical, and there are many variables....such as the jurisdiction you live in. How the authorities view citizens using force to defend themselves etc. And then the need to know and understand the legal tenets that are in play.
A lot of folk's I know who carry guns for protection IMO are woefully ill prepared for the realities of violence, and if they survive that experience, equally ill prepared for the aftermath in criminal or civil court actions.
Qualified ( those who have real world training & experience) trainers who are "reality based" and teach what the individual end user needs to know, is an essential part of the equation as far as I am concerned.
Skill development with the individuals choice of weaponry, and maintaining/enhancing those skill sets is also vitally important.
 
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It's the perception that formal training is absolutely required.

Granted, I learned from dad all the basics, and re-learned all the basics and tactical basics in the military. Then I learned what I'd call a level 2 tactical from a special forces group that came in to teach my unit's special team that I was part of.

I don't need someone telling me training is required, or that I absolutely must take this training class to be effective.

The other side is I've signed up for a basic level 1 class, and it's coming up. I believe when you start with a new instructor, go ahead and start at the bottom. You never know what he or she might teach you.

I'm in no way against training. I think it can be beneficial to everyone. But I do get annoyed when someone tells me I don't know what I'm doing unless I go through the tacticool school.

I know what I'm doing, and training can build upon what I already know.

the original point and click interface, by Smith and Wesson
 
Men, as a species, are adverse to the idea that they automatically don't know how to do manly things like shoot guns, play the guitar, work with tools etc. We're also gear heads. It's generally more important for us to own tools and objects than it is to know how to use them well

As Fastbolt suggested above, guitars are a perfect example. Gazillions of men own very expensive guitars. Yet they don't take lessons, don't practice, don't learn. They blame their lack of skills on some kind of "I wasn't born with the talent".

There are men on this very list who will say the same thing about shooting "Jerry and Brian and Bill are (were) great shooters because they have talent. I could never be that good because I lack the talent". Never mind that all those guys shoot and TRAIN a thousand times more than those that cop out with the "no talent" excuse.

Shooting is nothing more than a physical exercise. Just like bowling or pole vaulting or T-shirt folding. Train and practice at any of them, including shooting, and you improve. Don't train, don't practice, you live in "no talent excuse" land.

That Y chromosome only accounts for so much.


Sgt Lumpy
 
IMO training is a good thing. IMO practice is a good thing.

But, let's be realistic here. "I am a firm believer that without training on the weapon you carry…you are MORE dangerous to yourself and loved ones than you were when you didn’t have one." is just pure BS.

Eleven states in this country do not require any training at all to issue a concealed carry permit, four states do not require a permit at all.

Hundreds, no THOUSANDS of times a year people with little or no training at all protect themselves or their loved ones with a firearm and manage not to harm themselves or their families.

Ken
 
As Fastbolt suggested above, guitars are a perfect example. Gazillions of men own very expensive guitars. Yet they don't take lessons, don't practice, don't learn. They blame their lack of skills on some kind of "I wasn't born with the talent".

Sgt Lumpy
Yeah ... he did well with that analogy.
"talent" does play a part. Really talent only means it'll take a few days to learn something instead of a few weeks. but at the end of the decade, we all end up masters as long as we don't bail out or become overly comfortable in our skill level, falling prey to stagnation.
as for taking lessons ..... If you can honestly analyze your performance, the good the bad and the ugly, and determine where the problems are. You then have the means to ask the right questions and know a right answer on its face value. At this point, you don't really need lessons. Your already guiding yourself through the subject better than anyone else can.
you might opt to take a lesson later on to see if you've missed something down the road, however.
And honestly, that might be the best way. One can waste so much time and money on poor instruction because they had no standard with which to measure it.
I know a lady at church who has had something like two and a half years of guitar lessons. She could only play major chords and relied on a capo.
I never had a lesson. I can run the whole neck and voice virtually any chord.
I tripled her knowledge of the instrument in 20 minutes.
I've not seen her use a capo since;)
 
I don't need someone telling me training is required, or that I absolutely must take this training class to be effective.

But I do get annoyed when someone tells me I don't know what I'm doing unless I go through the tacticool school.

Now see I didn’t get that from the article. I didn’t get that the guy was pushing any particular school or type of training, I got “get some kind if training” don’t just put a gun in your pocket and call it good.

I wonder if he would have given you the same impression if he changed the title.
 
Now see I didn’t get that from the article. I didn’t get that the guy was pushing any particular school or type of training, I got “get some kind if training” don’t just put a gun in your pocket and call it good.

I wonder if he would have given you the same impression if he changed the title.

Maybe I misunderstood and went off on a rant. Don't take me too seriously as this happens to me somewhat frequently.

the original point and click interface, by Smith and Wesson
 
Now see I didn’t get that from the article. I didn’t get that the guy was pushing any particular school or type of training, I got “get some kind if training” don’t just put a gun in your pocket and call it good.

I wonder if he would have given you the same impression if he changed the title.

wording means a lot in the delivery. Wording also is an indicator.
Checking through the site, they seem to have a tacticool vibe.
If I were motivated to seek advice, and given a choice between them, and someone like Kieth44spl. I think I'd be headed out to see Keith.
 
...as for taking lessons ..... If you can honestly analyze your performance, the good the bad and the ugly, and determine where the problems are. You then have the means to ask the right questions and know a right answer on its face value. At this point, you don't really need lessons. Your already guiding yourself through the subject better than anyone else can...

Consider this...There is NO olympic or professional athlete that performs without a coach. Surely one would think that an olympic class athlete would have the ability to "ask the right questions and know a right answer on it's face value". Models, athletes, actors, musicians, shooters...They all have coaches.

It's not about asking yourself questions. It's about your coach challenging you.


Sgt Lumpy
 
...Hundreds, no THOUSANDS of times a year people with little or no training at all protect themselves or their loved ones with a firearm and manage not to harm themselves or their families.

I don't think that happens thousands of times a year. I think what happens is that thousands of times a year someone feels safe because they are armed.

Surely you wouldn't suggest that a total gun novice, with no knowledge of guns, is better off NOT receiving some training.

You don't play guitar, do you?...:cool:


Sgt Lumpy
 
The title is offensive... "pretending", really? That page goes on to say, "I am a firm believer that without training on the weapon you carry…you are MORE dangerous to yourself and loved ones than you were when you didn’t have one." This is just self-serving marketing hype and blather.

^^^ This. A title like that is going to draw out a certain type.

I kinda shake my head at some of the "TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT!" sheepdawgs who insist that unless I'm practicing with $1/round full power HP ammo, drawing from conealment & runnin' & gunnin' I'm just wasting my time and would be better off staying home.

Over on another site I belong to I have a few of those on ignore. Life is short. ;)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyKen View Post

...Hundreds, no THOUSANDS of times a year people with little or no training at all protect themselves or their loved ones with a firearm and manage not to harm themselves or their families.

I don't think that happens thousands of times a year. I think what happens is that thousands of times a year someone feels safe because they are armed.

Surely you wouldn't suggest that a total gun novice, with no knowledge of guns, is better off NOT receiving some training.

You don't play guitar, do you?...:cool:
\

Sgt Lumpy

Did you read the part of my post you didn't quote?

IMO training is a good thing. IMO practice is a good thing.

And
But, let's be realistic here. "I am a firm believer that without training on the weapon you carry…you are MORE dangerous to yourself and loved ones than you were when you didn’t have one." is just pure BS.

Eleven states in this country do not require any training at all to issue a concealed carry permit, four states do not require a permit at all.

And of course that happens thousands of times a year. Most of the time simply displaying a firearm is sufficient. Please read the news and the "It happened to me," in several magazines and NRA publications or John Lott's research.

No, as I said "training is a good thing." But, I repeat, to say "that without training on the weapon you carry…you are MORE dangerous to yourself and loved ones than you were when you didn’t have one." is just pure BS.

Ken

p.s.; I shoot pretty well and it is no where near as difficult to do as it is to play the guitar (or any instrument) well.
 
Would anyone here tell a caveman he needed formal instruction on spear defense?

Handguns, as I see them, are modern spears. Practice, use, and instruction makes us more proficient, but we are not inept helpless creatures if we lack formal training.
 
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