Formal Training Is Bad?

[poordevil]

Driving is not a Right. The fact that gun accidents have declined over and over in the last many years tells me handling a gun and driving are two different things. I was 5 years old in Imperial County CAL. (Calipatria) and would go to the Hobo Jungle with a single shot .22 with .22 shorts. By myself. I could do that safely and competently at age 5. I don't think I would be able to drive a car at that age.

Telling someone who has never touched a gun or seen one in person, but now wants to own one and carry it, can and should be shown the fundamentals. But creating a circus full of hoops to jump through is unnecessary.

 

[walkin' trails]

Interesting "group", just from reading their website & FAQ. Their motto, We have an internal group motto….”Who we are, matters not. What we do, remains unseen. How we do it, is everything.” is ... interesting.

Anyway, I can see the title being a bit offensive to the average gun owner who sees it.
)

I kind of like their motto. I think it can be applied to concealed carry. BTW - Fastbolt, I agree with your other points also.

I hear people in the gun industry and civilians complain about LEOs lack of skills or indifference in regard to firearms, but for every cop who is challenged, how many civilian shooters are there who can't hit the proverbial "broad side of a barn?" I've shot on public ranges and have seen a number of folks out for a shooting session who ranged from spray and pray gangstas whose accuracy wasn't anything to write home about to regular folks who would have been better off spending their ammo money on a movie that night. The gangbangers shouldn't have guns in the first place, but the good minded people need to have some acceptable level of competency if they're going to have a firearm.

A few months ago on other blogs the issue about mandatory training came up for gun owners. Some states like Kalifornia require a safety test (written) in order to buy a gun. It's obvious how thst is working out. Others don't. I'm not in favor of government mandated training for gun owners, but I'm all for getting the message out to them that they should seek something for the good of the cause.

 

[Protected One]

Which states don't require training?

Where are these statistics on the "thousands" of people who protected themselves with firearms each year?


Sgt Lumpy

Would you find it hard to believe that 20 times per year, in each state in the U.S.A., some "untrained" person successfully uses a firearm to defend themselves? (Notice, I did not say SHOT at someone). That would be 1000 instances, most of which are undocumented because there was no police involvement. I believe "thousands" is very realistic.

 

[The Big D]

That most assuredly begs the question "why" were not police involved.

And how do you know there were "20 times per year, in each state?" That stat makes no sense whatsoever. Seems to me some states would have more, some less, than others.

FTR, every single time I have "used" a gun LEO's were involved.

Be safe.

Would you find it hard to believe that 20 times per year, in each state in the U.S.A., some "untrained" person successfully uses a firearm to defend themselves? (Notice, I did not say SHOT at someone). That would be 1000 instances, most of which are undocumented because there was no police involvement. I believe "thousands" is very realistic.

 

[CowboyKen]

Just a couple of sources from Wiki:

Gary Kleck

Kleck conducted a national survey in 1994 (the National Self-Defense Survey) and, extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed, estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents in which victims used guns for self-protection

Of course:
It has been asserted that a federal government survey has found that defensive gun uses (DGU) occur at a dramatically lower magnitude than that found by Kleck. In the report "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms" by Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, the authors quote the National Crime Victim Survey (NCVS) as finding 108,000 DGU per year. The gun use survey included in the NSPOF itself projected 4.7 million DGU which Cook and Ludwig explained by pointing out all of the NSPOF sample were asked the DGU question. Cook and Ludwig also compared the U.S. crime rate to the number of DGU reported by Kleck and similar studies and asserted that their estimate of DGU is improbably high.[18] An article published by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, drawing its DGU from the NCVS, said: "In 1992 offenders armed with handguns committed a record 931,000 violent crimes ... On average in 1987-92 about 83,000 crime victims per year used a firearm to defend themselves or their property. Three-fourths of the victims who used a firearm for defense did so during a violent crime; a fourth, during a theft, household burglary, or motor vehicle theft."[19]

And from Guns Used in Self-defense

According to the authors of Cato’s recently released study on how often guns are used by citizens to prevent crime, “tens of thousands of crimes are prevented each year by ordinary citizens with guns.” In a study of more than 5,000 news reports over an eight-year period, Clayton Cramer and David Burnett showed that the mere presence of an armed citizen thwarts many crimes, even beyond those that are reported by the police and subsequently printed in the newspaper.

And lots more if you would care to spend a moment with Google.

So you may pick whose research you like but "THOUSANDS" is clearly an understatement.

Ken

 

[gunnails]

The stats I saw from the CDC said 800,000 to 3 million defensive uses per year.

 

[Protected One]

That most assuredly begs the question "why" were not police involved.

And how do you know there were "20 times per year, in each state?" That stat makes no sense whatsoever. Seems to me some states would have more, some less, than others.

FTR, every single time I have "used" a gun LEO's were involved.

Be safe.

There are MANY instances where police are not involved:
Recently, in Detroit, a editor for the Detroit Free Press published the story of "why he carries" a handgun.
He said he was "selected" as a potential victim of two thugs who saw him enter a party store. As he left, he KNEW they were watching him, and as he approached his car they called out "Hey man"(trying to get his attention). As he turned and said "What!" he pulled back his jacket, revealing (but not drawing) his handgun. The thugs took off running away. He did not call the police.
The "20 times per month" was NOT a statistic I was quoting, but rather a number used to make a point; If a similar scenario to the editors situation happens only 1 time per day, in each state in the country, thats 1500 times EACH MONTH nationaly (or 18,000 times per year). So again, 1000 is a very conservative number.

 

[The Big D]

Now understand what I thought was a quote. Thank you.

On the other hand, there is no way on planet earth there was defensive use of a gun 2,500,000 times per year in the United States. (Did the math; that's 6849/day, 285/hour, 5/minute...exclusive of LEO's.) Extrapolating responses from approximately 5000 people is hardly scientific, and the methodology has been effectively debunked.

Be safe.

 

[Protected One]

Now understand what I thought was a quote. Thank you.

On the other hand, there is no way on planet earth there was defensive use of a gun 2,500,000 times per year in the United States. (Did the math; that's 6849/day, 285/hour, 5/minute...exclusive of LEO's.) Extrapolating responses from approximately 5000 people is hardly scientific, and the methodology has been effectively debunked.

Be safe.

Lets look at those stats another way:
2,500,000 divided by 365 comes to 6,849 per day. Divide that by 50 states = 136 per state.
Now, granted, some states (Wyoming, Colorado, Montana, etc..) won't have 136 per day...but I believe that states like California, Illinois, Texas, Michigan, Florida, etc. will MORE than make up the difference.

Don't discount the possibility just because of the size of the overall number estimated (2,500,000).
Besides, what if it was in reality only HALF of that number? That's still huge. Heck...Detroit probably has 60-70 per day!

 

[TheYoungblood]

Reporting a use of firearm for defensive reasons when it is or is not not fired is a time consuming hassle. Around here you will give up at least one hour of time after a local officer shows up at your door to begin any report. I once lived in a neighborhood that began to have drive-by-shootingS. The home owners and renters did not bother reporting their DGU unless someone needed medical care or wanted to file insurance claim for damages.

I know a woman that was bringing several bags of groceries into her home and made several trips to her car. On her last trip in someone came up behind her and tried to walk into her home. She stated the man claimed he was just wanting to say "Hi" and stop in for a visit. (Sure, a "visit") She took the handgun out of her purse, told the man she would blow his nuts off, and he proceeded to run out of her doorway with a large sized knife hanging out his rear pocket. She told me the police spent an hour at her home, no arrests were made, and they informed her they likely would never find the man. This reason made her decide to never call cops again unless she actually shot someone...

 

[Protected One]

Reporting a use of firearm for defensive reasons when it is or is not not fired is a time consuming hassle. Around here you will give up at least one hour of time after a local officer shows up at your door to begin any report. I once lived in a neighborhood that began to have drive-by-shootingS. The home owners and renters did not bother reporting their DGU unless someone needed medical care or wanted to file insurance claim for damages.

I know a woman that was bringing several bags of groceries into her home and made several trips to her car. On her last trip in someone came up behind her and tried to walk into her home. She stated the man claimed he was just wanting to say "Hi" and stop in for a visit. (Sure, a "visit") She took the handgun out of her purse, told the man she would blow his nuts off, and he proceeded to run out of her doorway with a large sized knife hanging out his rear pocket. She told me the police spent an hour at her home, no arrests were made, and they informed her they likely would never find the man. This reason made her decide to never call cops again unless she actually shot someone...

Thank you for helping substantiate my point.

 

[TheYoungblood]

Thank you for helping substantiate my point.

Well, I do know before they moved the following year she had to deal with prowler trying to fumble with picking the back door lock. He acted "agitated" and she stated her reply was very "personal" when she told him that he could stay for ambulance or leave without coming back.

I used to install alarms, fire detection, and access controls at home and businesses. I heard things the police were never called on. These stories were from residents in a neighborhood where a police officer was shot (killed) while sitting in the car watching a street.

Anyone want to state in reply to me DGU are NEVER really that under reported?

 

[dougb1946]

The stats I saw from the CDC said 800,000 to 3 million defensive uses per year.

The CDC report was commissioned by the Pres to show the need for gun control. He hasn't mentioned the results of his report.

 

[CowboyKen]

Going back for a moment to the original statement in the article under discussion that I challenged:

I am a firm believer that without training on the weapon you carry…you are MORE dangerous to yourself and loved ones than you were when you didn’t have one.

And the good Sgt's position that "I don't think that happens thousands of times a year. I think what happens is that thousands of times a year someone feels safe because they are armed," in response to my statement that "Hundreds, no THOUSANDS of times a year people with little or no training at all protect themselves or their loved ones with a firearm and manage not to harm themselves or their families."

And with all of the good information, and sourced data, above to put the lie to those that do not WANT TO BELIEVE, do we still want to make a case that you will shoot your eye out if you get a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas?

Ken

 

[JParanee]

Training is everything and those that say it is unneeded say so because they do not want to spend the time or money to search it out

You do not need much just the basics so you can than on your own improve properly

 

[phuzzy]

My 2 Cents

" Right now there are people who are training hard so when they meet you they will try to defeat you".



You must train Harder!


All training is good as long as it achieves the goal.


My Rant is complete!

Phuzzy

 

[fdw]

Very interesting discussion. Speaking from my limited experience here.

I've had some basic training. Got it when I first bought a hand gun and it was invaluable. Since then I practice, practice and practice. Not only does this help with my shooting skills but it helps with my safety and gun handling skills. There's just certain rules I live by like always treat a gun like it's loaded, never point a gun at anything you don't want to destroy, always be aware of what's behind what you are shooting, etc.

These rules were learned in my basic training and I've taken them to heart.

The things is, everyone makes mistakes in all sorts of ways with all sorts of things, but if you make a mistake with a gun, you just may pay dearly...