Formal Training Is Bad?

Did you read the part of my post you didn't quote?...

No, as I said "training is a good thing." But, I repeat, to say "that without training on the weapon you carry…you are MORE dangerous to yourself and loved ones than you were when you didn’t have one." is just pure BS.

Yes, I did read the whole post. There are not THOUSANDS of times per year where people with little or no training protect themselves with firearms. There simply aren't.

And despite your "repeating it" a person with a gun who does NOT know how to use it IS more dangerous to themselves and loved ones than a person without a gun. That part is simple math. NOBODY without a gun has ever shot themselves or a loved one. But people with guns, trained or untrained, certainly have shot themselves or a loved one. I don't know if there are statistics to suggest that those who have shot themselves or others are trained or not trained.

I know plenty of people...see plenty of people every time I go to the range, who I feel unsafe around when they handle guns. I'll bet you do too.


Sgt Lumpy
 
Consider this...There is NO olympic or professional athlete that performs without a coach. Surely one would think that an olympic class athlete would have the ability to "ask the right questions and know a right answer on it's face value". Models, athletes, actors, musicians, shooters...They all have coaches.

It's not about asking yourself questions. It's about your coach challenging you.


Sgt Lumpy
yeah ... if and when it comes to that .. but before you get there, you have yourself. Train yourself correctly and you are better qualified to choose the right coach.

Given a choice between former military, the tacticool kids, police, and competition shooters giving instruction... I think I'd go with the cop for defensive pistol courses.
Working with the letter of the law every day adds a necessary layer to the subject.
But then .. to come to this decision is based upon thing I largely figured out on my own
 
...I kinda shake my head at some of the "TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT!" sheepdawgs who insist that unless I'm practicing with $1/round full power HP ammo, drawing from conealment & runnin' & gunnin' I'm just wasting my time and would be better off staying home.

Hey, it's great when someone else is paying the bill - like you and me. :)
 
As I noted in a post last summer, a veteran LEO who was once known for his handgun skills was disqualified from LEOSA training...in my presence. Sadly, the gentleman was not able to safely handle a handgun. He was a danger to everyone...including himself.

It can and does happen...sometimes it is manifest from one's early days. There is nobody who should handle any gun without first some instruction.

I had never handled a handgun until my recruit training...never. Should I have been handed my duty weapon and told "teach yourself how to shoot" (without all the ancillary components involved, too) and turned loose? :eek:

LEOSA qualified LEO's MUST undergo professional training each year. I have no problems with it and do learn something every time.

Be safe.

...I know plenty of people...see plenty of people every time I go to the range, who I feel unsafe around when they handle guns. I'll bet you do too.


Sgt Lumpy
 
Yes, I did read the whole post. There are not THOUSANDS of times per year where people with little or no training protect themselves with firearms. There simply aren't.

And despite your "repeating it" a person with a gun who does NOT know how to use it IS more dangerous to themselves and loved ones than a person without a gun. That part is simple math. NOBODY without a gun has ever shot themselves or a loved one. But people with guns, trained or untrained, certainly have shot themselves or a loved one. I don't know if there are statistics to suggest that those who have shot themselves or others are trained or not trained.

I know plenty of people...see plenty of people every time I go to the range, who I feel unsafe around when they handle guns. I'll bet you do too.


Sgt Lumpy

I will finish here by noting that there is no demonstrable difference in accidental shootings in states that require training from those that don't.

I think we will agree to disagree.

Ken
 
I will finish here by noting that there is no demonstrable difference in accidental shootings in states that require training from those that don't.

Which states don't require training?

Where are these statistics on the "thousands" of people who protected themselves with firearms each year?


Sgt Lumpy
 
Many leo, military, and average Joe will experience some safety incident or unplanned discharge. Training is useful when it matches the possible situations one might encounter. The article is from a place that offers services. Everyone can use more knowledge and skills from driving to writing to firearms. But a majority of people only place a priority on how to breed or couch potato more... I talked to leo that chuckled at a "civi" that recently attended a 5 day class at a formal school. So how could this work out one day? The leo only fires to qualify when it is mandated. The "civi" is learning beyond what his life might surprise on him while the other might hesitate(?) when his job places him into a headshot encounter since he only scrapes by at qualification time. . .

Nomex on?
 
Which states don't require training?

Where are these statistics on the "thousands" of people who protected themselves with firearms each year?


Sgt Lumpy

Any state with constitutional carry does not require training, of which, if memory serves, there are four. There may well be states beyond this that don't require training. For example, my state recognizes hunter safety as the requirement for a CCW permit.

As to the statistics, you will never see anything beyond estimates for a variety of reasons. Firearms can be presented and not fired, fired and missed, fired and hit without killing, and in any of these circumstances could result in a what could be termed "successful defense," even without killing a person.

Also, the types of people who tend to take care of themselves in respect to defense are generally self-sufficient people, and if they didn't need to report it, they might not, and if it was reported, it might not be compiled into a database, etc. etc.

Lastly, the kind of people you don't hear about are the kind of people who carry without incident daily, and they're the overwhelming, vast, majority.
 
The Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council released the results of their research through the CDC last month. Researchers compiled data from previous studies in order to guide future research on gun violence, noting that “almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year.” - See more at: CDC Study: Use of Firearms For Self-Defense is ?Important Crime Deterrent? | CNS News

=========================================

I think most will always agree training and practice is a good thing.

My problem is with those that say you have to have training before attempting to defend yourself with a hand gun. I feel no training should be required to own, posses, are conceal carry, 2nd amendment and all that.
 
Which states don't require training?

Where are these statistics on the "thousands" of people who protected themselves with firearms each year?


Sgt Lumpy

there are some states that require that you have a gun to carry it .. such as Alaska.
those aside, most do require training in terms of very basic gun handling. I think these are being lumped into the "untrained" category.
really this would be better stated as minimally trained as they have been told how to load it, point it and fire it.
Most of us overlook that as training because we already know these things and often find it difficult to comprehend how someone could not know these basics.

When I went through the NE classes I think only two people actually payed attention through the care and feeding portion.
they already knew this stuff beforehand.
The legal portion got a lot more attention.
as we get further away from black and white concepts like not shooting the mail man but definitely put some metal on that armed robbers meat, the more nuanced things become. Such as what to do about the group of teenagers loitering in the parking lot.
by this point everyone was all ears.
For the most part, this represented minimum training, but training none the less, even if it mostly served to show you how much of it ya had right to begin with.
 
Which states don't require training?

Where are these statistics on the "thousands" of people who protected themselves with firearms each year?

Sgt Lumpy

Alabama lacks training requirement and permit is issued at county level. Our weapons laws date back to before 20th century.
 
I know plenty of people...see plenty of people every time I go to the range, who I feel unsafe around when they handle guns. I'll bet you do too.
Sgt Lumpy

Oh Yeah. I've watched many people at the range fumbling with the safety, dropping magazines, failing to maintain "directional control" of the muzzle, etc. If these folks can't handle their gun safely on a range, shooting at a stationary target, they are an AD waiting to happen. Imagine seldom driving a car, and then only on dry roads in daylight at the speed limit w/o other traffic present. How safe would you be driving in snow, or at night? To ask if training is necessary to handle a deadly weapon is a ridiculous question. Of course it is. As is practice of the lessons learned. If you don't receive proper training, and then practice what you learned, you're not safe to carry a gun. This isn't rocket science, it's plain common sense.
 
Which states don't require training?

Where are these statistics on the "thousands" of people who protected themselves with firearms each year?


Sgt Lumpy
No training requirement in WA state (don't even have to know which end the bullet is supposed to come out :eek:) The requirement for CC is that you have to pass a background check. we're also an open carry state.
 
...If you don't receive proper training, and then practice what you learned, you're not safe to carry a gun. This isn't rocket science, it's plain common sense.

With due respect, Steve, two things:
1. This paints with a VERY broad brush.
2. Legal matters rarely concern themselves with common sense (unfortunately).

If you had said, "Without professional training you're not as proficient as you might be," you might have a point to discuss. In Indiana training is not required for the simple reasons that (1) no one could determine what training was required, (2) who should do it, and (3-the BIG one) where would the bar be set that below which your right to defend yourself no longer exists. I prefer the Indiana way.

I may not be as "safe" as a uniformed officer simply because I do not wear a duty belt with secure holster, but I challenge the notion that because I have not devoted the resources to formal training (that really doesn't interest me, in my situation) that I am not "safe to carry a gun." That's a little harsh, don't you think?
 
:TextRemoved: With due respect, Steve, two things:
1. This paints with a VERY broad brush.
2. Legal matters rarely concern themselves with common sense (unfortunately).

If you had said, "Without professional training you're not as proficient as you might be," you might have a point to discuss. In Indiana training is not required for the simple reasons that (1) no one could determine what training was required, (2) who should do it, and (3-the BIG one) where would the bar be set that below which your right to defend yourself no longer exists.

In my state with low population count of 4.6 million there are a minimum of 150,000 permits issued every year. This number does not include the smaller counties where the Sheriff has not released the numbers. We actually had some law enforcement question how our state would institute a training standard with the same line of thought above.
 
I will finish here by noting that there is no demonstrable difference in accidental shootings in states that require training from those that don't.

I think we will agree to disagree.

Ken

Not too sure I'd rely on that sort of "statistic" (or lack thereof, from a valid scientific source) for trying to make the case for handling/using firearms as dedicated defensive weapons.

While I used the guitar example because it's a popular one, I actually think my car example was more telling, and more relevant.

Just because states require some sort of training & education for a driver's license, that hasn't eliminated drivers becoming involved in collisions.

Operating equipment (guns, cars, etc) under non-stressful and ideal conditions is one thing.

Operating them under stress and in unexpected emergency situations is another thing.

People do weird and unpredictable things when faced with exigent circumstances. Things which puzzle even them afterward, as they may have no idea why they did what they did.

Training, done at different levels, can reportedly help ingrain proper responses under conditions anticipated during training. Training for a purpose. (Ingrained & practiced responses that don't require you to stop and run through the mental Rolodex of possible actions to a stimulus, looking for the "right" response during precious seconds). Making the conscious decision to act (or not), but relying on training to provide the proper response under anticipated circumstances.

Operating a motor vehicle is something most drivers do a lot of, and for a long time. Going from one point to another.

Using a car as an emergency vehicle (patrol car), though, can subject drivers to conditions and circumstances not typically presented to the average driver. Instead of just handing car keys to new-hires and telling them to drive as needed for Code runs & conditions, some further training is usually provided to better prepare them for "driving" under duress and stress, in emergency conditions, for both their safety and the safety of everyone else around them.

Now, people being people, even "trained" people are going to make mistakes, miss their "timing", miss seeing something, experience an injury, stumble and have it throw them off, etc, etc.

Think of it this way ...

How well do you want to be able to potentially react under the worst-case set of conditions and circumstances you can envision, and which actually might happen?

Do you want to leave it to "instinct", or hope your everyday type of normal range "target practice" can somehow allow you to rise to the level needed to handle an unexpected emergency situation?

Training ... backed up with sufficiently frequent proper practice, and perhaps even recurrent training ... may be the better bet than hoping to just somehow "rise" to the level needed when someone is caught up in that "FREEZE, FLIGHT or FLIGHT" reaction, and sensory deficit may occur in some previously unexperienced manner (auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, tachypsychia).

Training has been thought to help "inoculate" a trained person against some of the debilitating effects of the normal stress responses when it comes to being able to act in a volitional, proper, and effective manner.

So, it may pretty much come down to how well prepared to act safely, lawfully, properly and effectively does someone want to be when it comes to using a firearm as a dedicated defensive weapon?

Taking the ego out of the equation isn't something that humans are typically good at, is it? ;)

Go watch, or participate in, some local IDPA event. Ask about the training of some of the folks. How well do the "casual range target shooters" generally do under the normal stress induced during the competition of IDPA?

I remember during some in-service training I attended last year (LEOKA, or Law Enforcement Officers Killed & Assaulted), which included some reports of interviews with suspects who had used firearms. A surprising ... (and probably disturbing to some folks who don't deal with violent criminal suspects everyday) ... aspect was how many of those criminals claimed to have "practiced" a lot with their guns.

Official training? No. But they said they practiced their shooting against opportunistic targets quite a lot, some claiming every day. It was also said that they watched a lot of shooting training video clips (isn't the computer age wonderful?), especially those involving police training (their expected opponents). They felt that "training" and practice was going to be needed to survive armed encounters with other criminals and the police.

They also had the expectation that they might need those skills each and every day, as part of their normal day. They had a different mindset than the law-abiding, casual range shooter. They expected to have to use their guns at any moment, and they also understood that they may be shot (some had been) and still have to act to survive their encounters.

How many law-abiding folks arm themselves with a gun because they like that particular handgun, or it gives them some inarticulable sense of "protection" (the much discussed Talisman Effect)? A sort of Rabbit's Foot that will somehow protect them from HARM by them just having it?

Dunno. Don't presume to have those answers.

Shooting has been held to be a Perishable Skill for LE. There are any number of court decisions at the federal & state level which describe aspects, types & levels of police training for carrying & using firearms among the greater Public. Maybe that's a hint?

Rather than relying upon Luck & Instinct (which don't seem to have consistent track records), Training is probably the better way to prepare for adverse situations. Just maybe. ;)

It may all come down to how well prepared someone desires to be when bad things happen.

Wish I had that answer.
 
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...It may all come down to how well prepar ed someone desires to be when bad things happen.

Very true. And maybe how much risk the individual feels he normally is in as he goes about his daily routine.

The Chief who "recommended" issuing a license to me (many years ago that was standard practice here in IN) shared a couple of sobering thoughts when he interviewed me. He was a shrewd, practical fellow who put things about as plainly as he could. Not really a politician. :) His advice was that as a sport shooter who does not come into contact with undesirables routinely all my firearms "training" from the beginning has been to use guns safely and take every precaution never to harm anyone with one. (True enough.) His next piece of advice was even more humbling, "If anyone really wants to kill you and they know what they are doing, your hand will never touch your gun."

Lots of stuff to consider. :)
 
Which states don't require training?

Where are these statistics on the "thousands" of people who protected themselves with firearms each year?


Sgt Lumpy

How many states that require NO TRAINING AT ALL are we up to now?

I don't think anyone mentioned two of the most heavily populated such states as yet, Pennsylvania and Georgia require NO TRAINING AT ALL to issue a permit.

Why do we have to research this for you? Have you looked at Joh Lott's research?

Do you play the guitar? Are you good at it?

Ken
 
How many states that require NO TRAINING AT ALL are we up to now?

I don't think anyone mentioned two of the most heavily populated such states as yet, Pennsylvania and Georgia require NO TRAINING AT ALL to issue a permit.

Why do we have to research this for you? Have you looked at Joh Lott's research?

Do you play the guitar? Are you good at it?

Ken

I guess you're not done after all...

We're up to several states. Now how about the suggestion that "there is no demonstrable difference in accidental shootings in states that require training from those that don't."

You don't have to research a thing for me sir. I was simply asking you to support your assumptions which I don't think are supportable.

Not trying to poke you here, sir. Just questioning your assumptions. You clearly have a strong opinion/assumption. But I don't believe it proves out when examining facts and statistics. The sky isn't green just because I really strongly believe it is.

Yes, I play guitar very well. Either born with talent or studied and practiced my brains out for the last half a century or so.


Sgt Lumpy
 
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