DeathGrip
US Veteran
Something else to remember....Your average Bayern was not that tall and long armed.More stocky and thick.
DG
Found in a little old lady's closet!
- Thread starter PALADIN85020
- Start date
Something else to remember....Your average Bayern was not that tall and long armed.More stocky and thick.
DG
Alpo
Member
If the date had all three parts to it, then yes, the day would be first. Today, for example, would be 3,9,10, instead of the 9-3-10 we would write. But if they just stamped it for August 1920, it would say 8,20
DeathGrip
US Veteran
Thanks.I just looked closer at the pics and while the action looks like a Sauer, the engraving raises some questions. The gun is definitly German, but the fine english scroll engraving is not typically what you find on German built guns. German style engraving is a much heavier, deep-relief type.
I'd love to learn the history on this gun.
I'd love to learn the history on this gun.
OP
Thanks to S&WChad, who directed me to a German sporting gun site, I was able to definitively decipher the proof marks. Here's a photo of the marks again, together with my annotations for the significant marks:
Clarifying proof marks
I realize this is an old thread and I ran across it while doing some research on Georg Honold. I have a double rifle made by his shop. I'm not sure why this is in a Smith & Wesson Forum thread but it is here and I think a few minor points need clearing. I have looked at hundreds of German made firearms in the last 40 years in this business. These guns and rifles and combination guns are guild made components and usually some where a mark exists as to the action maker, barrel maker, etc. (even the largest makers in Germany outsourced some parts) The barrels on this shotgun were made by Honold, The "H" on the barrels are his mark. For the Maker to put his name on the finished firearm a master gunsmith had to work in the shop. The components may have been 'cottage' industry/guild but the fitting and finishing was completed in Honold's shop. The barrels when submitted to proof were 16 bore and the barrel diameters 22 cm from the breech were between 16.65mm and 16.81mm. The "16" stamped under the "crown over 'U" mark ( the "U" mark stamp was broken that's why it looks strange. This was marked on all guns proofed and the stamp is often damaged. I have seen several guns marked during this time period from the ULM proof house with the same damaged stamp) indicates this dimensional bracket. If it were slightly larger it would be marked "16/1", smaller, 17/1. This bore dimension dictates what the proof charge will be. In this case the 1st proof load would be 14.7 grams of a potent proof powder with 56.6grams of shot that's about 2 0z! The second proof load would be 9.8 grams of the same powder and 37.7 grams of shot. If it survived these 2 steps it was again shot at the service load of 4.9 grams of commercial powder and 28.3 grams of shot, 1 ounce.
The original chamber length under the 1891 proof laws (the above is part of those laws) was not required to be marked and assumed to always be 65mm = 2.5". Unless specifically marked differently. The Crown over "R" on the L barrel (right in the picture) indicates reproof following repair or alteration, i.e. rechamber to 70mm. Marking the gauge and chamber the second time with the bore and chamber length in a circle.(usually found after 1924). My guess it was being exported as 2 3/4" chambers in continental Europe were rare in 16 bore. The date of original proof is Aug of 1920 and the log # 21for the month. Sometimes the amount of choke is indicated by giving the bore major diameter and the muzzle diameter in m/m can be marked anywhere on the choked barrel bbl. A very nice shotgun by a small maker. In 2012 this gun would not have much trouble making $1500-$1800.
I realize this is an old thread and I ran across it while doing some research on Georg Honold. I have a double rifle made by his shop. I'm not sure why this is in a Smith & Wesson Forum thread but it is here and I think a few minor points need clearing. I have looked at hundreds of German made firearms in the last 40 years in this business. These guns and rifles and combination guns are guild made components and usually some where a mark exists as to the action maker, barrel maker, etc. (even the largest makers in Germany outsourced some parts) The barrels on this shotgun were made by Honold, The "H" on the barrels are his mark. For the Maker to put his name on the finished firearm a master gunsmith had to work in the shop. The components may have been 'cottage' industry/guild but the fitting and finishing was completed in Honold's shop. The barrels when submitted to proof were 16 bore and the barrel diameters 22 cm from the breech were between 16.65mm and 16.81mm. The "16" stamped under the "crown over 'U" mark ( the "U" mark stamp was broken that's why it looks strange. This was marked on all guns proofed and the stamp is often damaged. I have seen several guns marked during this time period from the ULM proof house with the same damaged stamp) indicates this dimensional bracket. If it were slightly larger it would be marked "16/1", smaller, 17/1. This bore dimension dictates what the proof charge will be. In this case the 1st proof load would be 14.7 grams of a potent proof powder with 56.6grams of shot that's about 2 0z! The second proof load would be 9.8 grams of the same powder and 37.7 grams of shot. If it survived these 2 steps it was again shot at the service load of 4.9 grams of commercial powder and 28.3 grams of shot, 1 ounce.
The original chamber length under the 1891 proof laws (the above is part of those laws) was not required to be marked and assumed to always be 65mm = 2.5". Unless specifically marked differently. The Crown over "R" on the L barrel (right in the picture) indicates reproof following repair or alteration, i.e. rechamber to 70mm. Marking the gauge and chamber the second time with the bore and chamber length in a circle.(usually found after 1924). My guess it was being exported as 2 3/4" chambers in continental Europe were rare in 16 bore. The date of original proof is Aug of 1920 and the log # 21for the month. Sometimes the amount of choke is indicated by giving the bore major diameter and the muzzle diameter in m/m can be marked anywhere on the choked barrel bbl. A very nice shotgun by a small maker. In 2012 this gun would not have much trouble making $1500-$1800.
Cooter Brown
Member
The guild guns are very much appreciated by bird hunters especially, and the longer 29 inch barrels are a big plus. Upland guys like these guns because they are usually nice and light and well balanced, and are of good quality.
Among upland hunters, the 16 ga. has had a resurgence of popularity in the last 10 years or so. My personal go to bird gun is a 16.
The issue with the LOP can be corrected with a pad of appropriate thickness and weight.
I have a good buddy that has two 16 ga. guild guns--I believe one is a Honold. Both are excellent shotguns and get used quite a bit.
Sportclay's post is spot on. The gun had the chambers lengthened and was reproofed. This was not a shade tree job but done professionally--that's a nice, solid, useable gun, in a desirable gauge and configuration.
Among upland hunters, the 16 ga. has had a resurgence of popularity in the last 10 years or so. My personal go to bird gun is a 16.
The issue with the LOP can be corrected with a pad of appropriate thickness and weight.
I have a good buddy that has two 16 ga. guild guns--I believe one is a Honold. Both are excellent shotguns and get used quite a bit.
Sportclay's post is spot on. The gun had the chambers lengthened and was reproofed. This was not a shade tree job but done professionally--that's a nice, solid, useable gun, in a desirable gauge and configuration.
OP
Many thanks for the additional info! I appreciate it a lot. I am still storing the piece.
John
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