"Giving Away Your Position"

Jack Flash

Jack Flash

Member
Joined
May 30, 2005
Messages
9,507
Reaction score
11,347
Location
Michigan
There have been several threads where the topic of "Giving Away Your Position" by racking a shot gun slide has been mentioned. Not wanting to drift those threads, I thought I would start a new one on that subject.


Faced with unexplained noises in the house, one would have to determine if these sounds were caused by an intruder. The question is, at what point would you be more or less forced to "give away your position?"


One would assume that morally and ethically, (not to mention legally) a home owner can't just start blazing away when he thinks he determines the source of the sounds. This is especially true if there are multiple residents of the domicile.


I am assuming that no one here would want to shoot his neighbor who happened to come home drunk, lost his keys, and mistakes your house for his and comes in through a window. Or even shoot some 14 year old who made a really bad decision about how to pick up some easy money and would surrender immediately if confronted.


But then, if you employ a flashlight, doesn't that "give away your position?" If you give verbal commands / warnings, turn on lights, even the act of dialing 911, same question.


I look forward to thoughtful answers on this one.
 
Register to hide this ad
Identify your target. A motion activated night light placed out of the way would do it. A street light shining through a window is enough to identify a target.. In Minnesota, you have to fall back, even leave the property, if you can do so safely.
 
My battle plan facing a potential threat in the home that has not yet proven itself threatening is to get the best gun(s) available and take cover with a maximum field of fire, and call the police. If the act of calling triggers the threat, then I have my answer.
I'm not going to pursue or clear the house.
 
Home Defense Tactics

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...1241-home-defense-miscellaneous-thoughts.html

The above thread, which I initiated earlier this year, talks at length about home defense tactics.

Regarding your very valid concern, my feeling is that 99.9% of intruders would prefer not to have a confrontation with a home occupant. Once they become aware that you're awake, they must make an instant judgment call: is he just up and about or is he aware of my presence?

Is the intruder merely trying to steal valuables or is it your wife's or lover's X-boyfriend or husband determined to exact revenge and who also may be suicidal? My feeling is, even in your home, if you can scare off an intruder without actually discharging a firearm, you have accomplished your purpose.

My personal preference is to use a firearm that doesn't require a sound signature to deploy. If you do not thoroughly understand home defense tactics, it's easier to disarm someone of a long gun than a handgun when poor tactics are employed.

As for lighting, I would want the light to momentarily incapacitate the intruder. My feeling is that there should always be sufficient ambient light in other parts of the home that will allow you to discern a family member from an intruder without resorting to a flashlight, especially one that's gun mounted. Plans for an armed defense of your home require that all aspects of your tactics be scrutinized to stack all the cards in your favor and to minimize mistaking a family member for an intruder, especially if there are adult children still living with you and who come and go at all hours.
 
Last edited:
For starters, if you pull the ol' rack-the-shotgun move from an upstairs bedroom with an attacker on the ground floor, he now has the option to fire up through the floor at you, while you still don't have a good picture of where he is.

In a ranch-style, he can also choose to move outside and flank your position, firing through an exterior window.

And at the very least, he now has a very good idea of what room he can expect trouble from.

If he's clever, he also now knows what style of weapon you're armed with. If he's smart, he understands its limitations. He can consider how best to proceed before engaging, while you will be forced to respond on-the-spot. You always want to maintain as much initiative as possible.

Using a flashlight certainly reveals your position, but it also offers a huge advantage if employed correctly. If you wait to turn on the light until your attacker comes into view, a sudden bright light will temporarily blind him. You may be slightly dazed as well, but nowhere near as badly, and you'll be ready for it. Even if he has a firearm of his own, he'll be taking shots in the dark.

Placement of the light is key. You want to ensure that there's no way he can get behind the beam, as it creates a well of darkness. For instance, if I shined a light straight through an open doorway, and then stood against the wall in a "slicing the pie"-type position facing the direction of my attacker, the doorway and wall outside the door would be brightly-lit. However, the hall that I was looking down outside the door would seem extra-dark to me, as my eyes would be adjusted to the beam. It's very likely that the attacker would see me before I saw him.

You might also choose to deploy the light remotely. For instance, if you're fairly certain that the attacker knows what room you're in, and knows that you're aware of his presence, you can place the flashlight several feet away, aimed at the corner he'll be approaching from. With a bright-enough light, you'll still be very hard to see, and his natural inclination will be to presume that you're behind the light source, and act (or aim) accordingly.

Verbal warnings should only be issued at the point of contact. By that time, the fight has more or less begun in a home-defense scenario. Note, however, that if you have the element of surprise, a loud, strongly-worded command and sudden bright light can discourage further attack and create compliance. It naturally triggers a fear response. Police, corrections officers, and even the military use this tactic all the time. Ever wonder why they shout and move fast all the time? Turns out criminals, recalcitrant prisoners, and terrorists aren't immune to surprise and fright.

Contact should be delayed as long as possible. Hopefully, you've already dialed 9-1-1. Delaying contact gives them time to arrive. Even if there's going to be a gunfight, do you want to have that fight with reinforcements 10 minutes away, or 2 minutes away?

That said, cover the areas that need to be covered. If you've got to control a hallway to prevent attackers from accessing your kid's bedoom, don't cede that ground in the name of delaying a fight.

Personally--and this area doesn't get enough attention in SD writings, I'd be interested in reading more--I don't plan on having a long conversation if I call 9-1-1. I'd hit the basics:

--Address
--Problem (how many attackers?)
--Directions to the house
--Key identifying features of your house ("I'm on the right side of Poplar Drive if you're coming from Main street. It's the one with the white mailbox and the huge oak tree, there's a red pickup in the driveway.")
--"I'm armed"
--Describe what you're wearing ("I'm wearing a white tank-top and leopard-print thong")
--What room of the house you're in ("I'm in the upstairs bedroom, to the right down the hall")

And then--"Sorry, I can't talk anymore, I'm going to put the phone down on the floor. Please don't try to call for me, I'm trying to stay hidden." Leaving the line open creates an auditory record, useful for reconstructing your hopefully sound decisions.
 
dougb1946 said:
In Minnesota, you have to fall back, even leave the property, if you can do so safely.
Click to expand...

I know it is the law in your state, but the idea of having a duty to retreat in your own home, is so foreign to me and really kind of unbelievable.

Here in OKlahoma, it isn't that way, and its not that uncommon for residents to defend their homestead with lethal force and walk away from the situtation with very little legal aftermath.

That is not to say that these kinds of shootings are not scrutinized, by both law enforcement and prosecutors, they are. As they well should be.
 
If one lives alone, or in the same bedroom with his wife if he is married, and if his children's bedrooms are in the same part of the house and can be defended in common from one strong position, he has the ideal situation for self defense. The same applies if someone is able to build a safe room where everyone can retreat to. Staying in your bed room/safe room during the night, or defending a good room from a static position is the best, tactically and legally. Not only is it the best of all defense situations, choosing cover, cleared field of fire, "death funnel", not giving away your position, it also gives the ability make noise and shout verbal commands without direct risk.

From your static position away from the action, you can make noise and perhaps give away your general area of the house, but not give away your exact position in case the intruder wants to go all the way. You can make sure he knows someone is in the house, that people are alerted, and depending on the situation, might here your verbal commands and threats to leave. This will allow you to verbally warn and chase off an intruder from a safe position without danger or direct confrontation. If you give off your general location, so be it; if the intruder ignores your commands, accepts the risk of attacking defenders in the house, and comes AFTER you, it speaks well of your legal position. He may know you and yours might be in your bedroom, saferoom, or strategic location or hallway, but he won't know exactly where. When he kicks down the door or rushes to attack you, you still have the advantage.

Huge second on the ambient lighting. Not only is it good for general safety when people are roaming the house in the dark, a well lit house may appear occupied, and offers you the best lighting situation for self defense. You can see things in your house if you have to investigate without a flashlight in most scenarios, and without having to give away your exact location. Better visuals of the situation makes it safer for everyone when you can see things and people more carefully, easier to tell who it is from general lighting than the poor visual offered by a flashlight in the dark.

Flashlights are useful and sometimes the best choice, but its also good to remember that their ability to disorientate only works when you shine it in people's faces head on, and indeed, from the flank, does not do any good to you, and may only give away your exact position to an intruder who wants to commit violence. Indeed, some burglaries do turn into shoot outs when intruders don't just get spooked and run, and being flanked in your house while trying to clear it single handedly is a bad position, even worse if your flashlight illuminates you and gives the panicked attacker the first shot.

In any case, the safest legal and tactical choice is to attempt to take up a defensive position, warn, and if the attacker comes to you, blaze away. Giving away your general position with verbal commands and gun racking might be alright, but giving away your exact position at the moment of an in house battle is foolish.
 
Me too. But my plan does not involve leaving my family and chasing BG's through the house. It does involve calling 911.
 
Every house is different. That's the first issue. You live in a big home with second or third stories, thousands of square feet, etc., you have a lot to consider. You live in a small home, 1000 square feet or less, you have different considerations. Same with apartments/condominiums/townhomes/trailers. Each has a different set of considerations.

In a small home, one level, one field of fire, your options are fairly limited. If you have a larger home with an upstairs balcony you can play "Scarface" and "let me introduce you to my little friend". But at no time can you blaze away without being sure of your target.

Most states these days do not have duty to retreat laws, they have stand your ground laws and castle doctrine laws. That still doesn't allow for instant gunfire. If you are disturbed whilst sleeping, or even when you are watching TV, you need to have a plan of action that covers those contingencies.

Giving away your position is not wise in most cases. Racking a shotgun basically gives you away and does not ordinarily dissuade a dedicated home invader - it just gives him motivation to attack. Clint Smith teaches that you use your handgun to fight your way to your long gun and I subscribe to that as well. I totally disapprove of rifles for home defense, anyway, but that's a YMMV thing. My home defense shotguns can be reached but my home defense handguns are my first line of defense because they can be reached more easily.

I will only give away my position at the moment I order a home invader to the floor but if the perp has a weapon I might commence firing without a warning but I HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT THE WEAPON. You just cannot go around killing miscreants irresponsibly.

The shotguns are in closets. Retrieving them makes noise. I will only open a closet if nobody is yet inside the house but I hear them coming, or my dogs do. The handguns are at hand. So that's how I define the equation and I live in a small house, not one of those big ones that require more planning.
 
My reply is not a what I might do. I can give first person info on this. My home was broken into in 1975 by 2 men and a woman. We , my wife, daughter and I were home. This was about 3 A.M. on a Friday night. They came in through a locked back porch door, through the kitchen, down a hall to my daughter's bedroom door. Her door was always locked with a door chain to the hall. Her bedroom attached ours. I heard a BUMP sat up and looked into her room and she was sitting straight up in her bed. The half shepard half collie that slept by her bed was hunched down and growling at the door caught on the chain lock. This sequence took all of 5 seconds. I rolled out of the bed, told my wife to call the police {pre 911 days}, and grabbed a Stevens 311 loaded with 00. When I went through my daughter's bedroom she passed me going to her Mother. I opened the door to the sound of breaking glass where 2 of the 3 had torn a full glass storm door down making there escape. I caught the 3rd and oldest man. The police came and by noon they had the other 2. The chain lock door that we had taken so many laughs from friends about, saved the day by giving us the few seconds we needed to get going. My daughter was 6 and able to quickly do exactly what we had planned for..IN ADVANCE. If you do not have a plan, you are doomed. You cannot cover ever possible problem, but the basics will get you through. I have trained with Ken Hackathorn 3 times, he is the real deal. His tactics are not based on theory, he has seen the elephant, and killed him! His thought on racking a shotgun were simple, you are telling a career criminal..Shoot Me Now! I don't have to wonder what I will do if my house is broken into. It has been and I am still here. I could have easily shot the home invader, and gotten off. Partly because times were different then. But I was justified. There was no reason to shoot him, he got rid of his weapon QUICKLY and gave up. Please remember the Triad of Safety...be aware..have a plan..have a weapon. The one thing in this group you can do without is the weapon! We do many things here just so people can experience them, that way when it happens it isn't a complete surprise. Shoot from doors, from windows, from moving cars, behind furniture, under cars, under beds. Above all do not get caught cold without a plan. Remember, PANICK is a reasonable reaction to a problem with no forethought solution. Carry every step..shoot every day.
 
I live alone in an apartment with a steel door (door frame is also steel, as is the internal structure of the building) and narrow vertical windows. A security light outside my door gives ambient light even with room-darkening drapes.

I have a small dog who makes a hell of a noise if someone even knocks on the door.

There is almost always a gun and flashlight in reach. I make exceptions for the shower and the terlit.

I live in a castle doctrine state.

"The best laid plans of mice and men..."
 
I took a force on force scenario training class a few years ago. The instructor of the course was also a Sgt. with a local PD. The last scenario he presented was to "specifically" demonstrate the importance of having a flashlight handy at bedside, and what we *couldn't * do without one.

With the shades drawn on the shooting house and all lights turned off, he placed dark sunglasses on us (under our protective headgear because we were using simunition) and told us to go lay down in the bed. He then caused a "bump in the night sound" in the living room and told us to follow the training we had been given to deal with the situation - minus any light. Long story short, when I finished my turn he said I'd done very well....except - "You forgot to issue your commands".

I didn't forget...I just don't believe in using them! There are no children living in my house and thus there is no one to "collect and get to safety" in the event of a break in. The only other person with authority to be in my house is my wife, and she's right beside me. Nite lights are strategically placed throughout the house and I am aware of the potential blind-spots.

My warnings are non-verbal. They come in the form of a locked and hardened door, a closed and locked window, a well-lit exterior, and other *not to be disclosed* means of securing me and mine. So I've done my part. Should a drunk neighbor or misguided youth make a decision that causes them to disregard those non-verbal warnings and come into my house, well, too bad for THEM.

Lee's Landing Billy said:
My reply is not a what I might do. I can give first person info on this. My home was broken into in 1975 by 2 men and a woman. We , my wife, daughter and I were home. This was about 3 A.M. on a Friday night. They came in through a locked back porch door, through the kitchen, down a hall to my daughter's bedroom door. Her door was always locked with a door chain to the hall. Her bedroom attached ours. I heard a BUMP sat up and looked into her room and she was sitting straight up in her bed. The half shepard half collie that slept by her bed was hunched down and growling at the door caught on the chain lock. This sequence took all of 5 seconds. I rolled out of the bed, told my wife to call the police {pre 911 days}, and grabbed a Stevens 311 loaded with 00. When I went through my daughter's bedroom she passed me going to her Mother. I opened the door to the sound of breaking glass where 2 of the 3 had torn a full glass storm door down making there escape. I caught the 3rd and oldest man. The police came and by noon they had the other 2. The chain lock door that we had taken so many laughs from friends about, saved the day by giving us the few seconds we needed to get going. My daughter was 6 and able to quickly do exactly what we had planned for..IN ADVANCE. If you do not have a plan, you are doomed. You cannot cover ever possible problem, but the basics will get you through. I have trained with Ken Hackathorn 3 times, he is the real deal. His tactics are not based on theory, he has seen the elephant, and killed him! His thought on racking a shotgun were simple, you are telling a career criminal..Shoot Me Now! I don't have to wonder what I will do if my house is broken into. It has been and I am still here. I could have easily shot the home invader, and gotten off. Partly because times were different then. But I was justified. There was no reason to shoot him, he got rid of his weapon QUICKLY and gave up. Please remember the Triad of Safety...be aware..have a plan..have a weapon. The one thing in this group you can do without is the weapon! We do many things here just so people can experience them, that way when it happens it isn't a complete surprise. Shoot from doors, from windows, from moving cars, behind furniture, under cars, under beds. Above all do not get caught cold without a plan. Remember, PANICK is a reasonable reaction to a problem with no forethought solution. Carry every step..shoot every day.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your story. I hope the owners of the next home that trio breaks into are as well prepared.
 
Last edited:
dougb1946 said:
In Minnesota, you have to fall back, even leave the property, if you can do so safely.
Click to expand...

That is not entirely accurate. You have no duty to retreat in your own residence in Minnesota. Obviously, you can't execute an intruder like that guy in Little Falls did either.


State v. Carothers (1999): No duty to retreat in home;
State v. Bard (2002): No duty to retreat in home is retroactive.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Retired W4
Got hit with the Dawn dish soap scam
2 3 4
Replies
70
Views
5K
Mike SC Hunter
M
D
Jammed up Smith Revolver.....
2 3
Replies
46
Views
3K
H Richard
H Richard
kstaines
Need info on a .32-20 Spanish S&W clone
2
Replies
34
Views
2K
DAMDAN
D
S
Ruger Redhawk replacing S&W 25-5 (.45s and family)
Replies
13
Views
503
stansdds
S
C
Morons
2 3
Replies
44
Views
2K
Autonomous
Autonomous

Latest posts

Back
Top