I'm curious... I'm considering having a full action job done on a Model 60, including having the hammer bobbed. It's been my understanding for many years that the weight (mass) of the hammer in its original configuration adds to the successful ignition of the primer. Seems to me (intellectualizing here) that having the action job accomplished AND having the hammer bobbed may be counterproductive to successful ignition. Whaddaya think? Anybody have any real experience in this regard?
Hammer Bobbing...opinions, please.
- Thread starter REParker
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I'm interest in this also. I will be bobbing the hammer on my Fitz build..
Outpost75
Member
I prefer not to mutilate a carry gun from factory configuration. No Fitz mods or bobbed hammer. If you want a snag free pocket carry just buy a 642. +P capable and only 14-1/2 ozs. My NPE pocket carry EDC.
You can buy one for about the cost of the gunsmithing you are contemplating having done on your Model 60, but then you will a New York Reload. My two cents.
You can buy one for about the cost of the gunsmithing you are contemplating having done on your Model 60, but then you will a New York Reload. My two cents.
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smithman 10
US Veteran
I have dropped in bobbed hammers I got I believe from Jerry Keefer on at least 2 J frames and a couple K frames. Never had ignition problems. Always kept the original hammer in case I wanted to sell or trade the gun.
No action job involved, just dropping in the bobbed hammer. I actually went back and forth every once in awhile when I got bored for something to do.
No action job involved, just dropping in the bobbed hammer. I actually went back and forth every once in awhile when I got bored for something to do.
Outpost75
Member
Jerry was an artist. Also a perfectionist.
Correct keeping the factory hammer spring.
I like some bobbed in the inventory; just a few.
An as-new M65-3 acquired; preserved the original hammer; sourced a new replacement which was the subject of bobbing and conversion to DAO.
A new Taurus M85, bobbed hammer and DAO conversion as well; work horse for range practice to minimize wear and tear on nicer J frames.
A M49 no-dash, trans -hybrid.
Then some that were never born with a hammer spur. In therapy.
An as-new M65-3 acquired; preserved the original hammer; sourced a new replacement which was the subject of bobbing and conversion to DAO.
A new Taurus M85, bobbed hammer and DAO conversion as well; work horse for range practice to minimize wear and tear on nicer J frames.
A M49 no-dash, trans -hybrid.
Then some that were never born with a hammer spur. In therapy.
Tinkertech
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Why mutate a good gun, just buy the one you really wanted.
Pizza Bob
Member
This is a subject that wont die. While you are decreasing the mass of the hammer, due to that decrease, you have increased the velocity of the hammer. In the formula for kinetic energy, (KE = ½ × m × v²) the value for velocity is squared while mass remains a constant. If anything, ignition reliability would increase.
Adios,
Pizza Bob
Adios,
Pizza Bob
AJ
US Veteran
I am in the camp of why cut the hammer down, when you can buy a 42 series with no hammer for about what it will cost for the gunsmithing involved.
Now if you have a cosmetically challenged snubby then it may be a canidate for bobbing and whatever. I have a 31-1 that is so challenged. I reamed the 32 S&W chambers to .32 H&R Magnum. Do I feel bad for doing so? No, since it was not a collector piece as it sat. I bought it in this condition just to try the conversion. I am pleased with it.
Bottom line is it is your piece, so do whatever you want.
Now if you have a cosmetically challenged snubby then it may be a canidate for bobbing and whatever. I have a 31-1 that is so challenged. I reamed the 32 S&W chambers to .32 H&R Magnum. Do I feel bad for doing so? No, since it was not a collector piece as it sat. I bought it in this condition just to try the conversion. I am pleased with it.
Bottom line is it is your piece, so do whatever you want.
Outpost75
Member
My only bobbed hammer gun is a S&W 325PD Scadium .45 ACP which came from the S&W Performance Center that way.
At only 21-1/2 ounces it is a handful with hardball at 740 fps.
At only 21-1/2 ounces it is a handful with hardball at 740 fps.
I did one on a Mod 60 some years ago, kept the original mainspring and hand no problems. After I had acquired a Mod 640 I replaced the original unmolested hammer to the Mod 60.
austintexas
Member
I never bob a hammer, There are too many bobbed hammers sitting in gunsmiths junk box that the have replaced when someone buys a bobbed pistol and wants it original. I'll bet I have 3 or 4 in my junk box right now.
SWCA 892
SWCA 892
Protocall_Design
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This whole thing is more complicated than it seems on the surface. Pizza Bob shows us the math. It turns out that is correct, but with limitations.
If you keep the same spring pressure, the lighter hammer will travel faster and hit harder. But the purpose of the action job is to make the trigger pull lighter, thus making it easier to place your shots where you want them to go. That's why most people revert to single action for a precise shot. There are situations that call for an accurate hit, but lack the time for cocking single action. This is usually in a match where several shots are needed in quick succession. You can get a lighter trigger pull with less mainspring tension and still have reliable ignition in some cases. With a lighter mainspring tension, you can also have a lighter rebound spring as well, and still have a fast, positive trigger return, making the trigger pull lighter yet.
One of the variables often forgotten is the ammunition component. The primers are the focus in this case. Federal primers are the easiest to dent, so those with tuned revolvers always use them to get the lightest action. Reloading is a big advantage here, because you can make any kind of ammo you want, all with Federal primers. Normally the primers are seated flush to the case head, or a hair below. Some will crush seat the primers to .010 below. This makes the primer even more sensitive and allows an even lighter action.
It is common among the competition crowd to have a 4.5 to 5.0 lb. DA trigger pull and snappy rebound that is totally reliable with a bobbed hammer and crush seated Federals. You can have a good 6.0 to 6.5 lb. DA trigger with normally seated Federal and a bobbed hammer. Guns set up like this are much easier to shoot well than ones with 8+ lb. trigger pull. Most people will never know what it's like to shoot with a highly tuned revolver because they don't know anyone that has one they can try. It can be addictive. There is more to the tuning, but this addresses the bobbed hammer part.
If you keep the same spring pressure, the lighter hammer will travel faster and hit harder. But the purpose of the action job is to make the trigger pull lighter, thus making it easier to place your shots where you want them to go. That's why most people revert to single action for a precise shot. There are situations that call for an accurate hit, but lack the time for cocking single action. This is usually in a match where several shots are needed in quick succession. You can get a lighter trigger pull with less mainspring tension and still have reliable ignition in some cases. With a lighter mainspring tension, you can also have a lighter rebound spring as well, and still have a fast, positive trigger return, making the trigger pull lighter yet.
One of the variables often forgotten is the ammunition component. The primers are the focus in this case. Federal primers are the easiest to dent, so those with tuned revolvers always use them to get the lightest action. Reloading is a big advantage here, because you can make any kind of ammo you want, all with Federal primers. Normally the primers are seated flush to the case head, or a hair below. Some will crush seat the primers to .010 below. This makes the primer even more sensitive and allows an even lighter action.
It is common among the competition crowd to have a 4.5 to 5.0 lb. DA trigger pull and snappy rebound that is totally reliable with a bobbed hammer and crush seated Federals. You can have a good 6.0 to 6.5 lb. DA trigger with normally seated Federal and a bobbed hammer. Guns set up like this are much easier to shoot well than ones with 8+ lb. trigger pull. Most people will never know what it's like to shoot with a highly tuned revolver because they don't know anyone that has one they can try. It can be addictive. There is more to the tuning, but this addresses the bobbed hammer part.
Pizza Bob
Member
Mmmmm, somebody bobbed your hammer. The 325PD's came with a spur.
Outpost75
Member
Mine was bobbed at the Performance Center and came that way.
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In textbook theory, you may be right but in the world of revolvers there are too many changeable factors. And, yes, it's a subject that wont ever die because some have an incessant need to change/modify/molest. In more than fifty years of shooting a lot of S&W revolvers, many purchased new, I've yet to find one that didn't function with 100% reliability straight out-of-the-box. The trigger pull weight is easy to become accustomed to IF you'll get out and shoot the gun a good bit. Need to do this anyway to become a skilled handgun shooter. Gimmicks and gadgetry will never replace practice and the development of good shooting technique.
A 100% reliable "factory as is" revolver knows no difference in primers.
Bob it, no worries. Hammers are plentiful. I've had several and never a problem.
-BTM-
Member
Great post Bob. I'm actually looking at this exact question from a lock-time perspective, really curious about the legendary SA hammer/ trigger combo. Totally agree about the energy numbers.
Energy is mass times velocity squared, but energy is not the important factor. Energy is expended in many ways, noise, friction heat, etcetera. The important thing in force transfer from the hammer to the primer is momentum, mass times velocity. Momentum is also the critical factor in wound ballistics. Energy is always a much flashier number because of that squaring of the velocity but total kinetic energy dissipates in many ways
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