How did S&W lose the LE market?

[ispcapt]

Originally Posted by cp1969
Somebody said that in general civilian gun owners shoot less and thus implied they were less competent than their police-force counterparts.
That may be true in your neck of the woods but not in mine.
I used to participate in a joint police/civilian shoot in which the civilians routinely shot as just as well as the cops. Some did much better than the cops.
People don't buy Dillon reloaders for guns they 'seldom carry and never shoot.'

Totally agree! And I live in Illinois! Dale

Your comparisons aren't even close to being valid. How many shooters were actually doing the competitions compared to the total number of non-LEO gun owners? It's a very small percentage actually shooters. The average gun owner doesn't buy a Dillon press or any other type press. They buy 1 or 2 boxes of ammo and will never shoot all of that. Spend a bit of time working in a place where guns are brought in for trade/sale and you'll see all the new guns that have been owned for years and never shot.
For badkarma - A couple of the top ranked shooters in the nation are from your area and they're LEOs.

 

[Silversmok3]

Your comparisons aren't even close to being valid. How many shooters were actually doing the competitions compared to the total number of non-LEO gun owners? It's a very small percentage actually shooters. The average gun owner doesn't buy a Dillon press or any other type press. They buy 1 or 2 boxes of ammo and will never shoot all of that. Spend a bit of time working in a place where guns are brought in for trade/sale and you'll see all the new guns that have been owned for years and never shot.
For badkarma - A couple of the top ranked shooters in the nation are from your area and they're LEOs.

Agreed.

A majority of civilian shooters do NOT have the money or time to become proficient with their arms. Rob Leatham is an exception that that proves the rule. 1000 rounds of 9mm practice ammo runs about $250 , and that doesn't include gas to get to the range or the fees required once you get there. A lot of households don't have that kind of money to spend on practice.The folks that do with wife and kids have much more pressing uses for extra money than range time.

Now, here and there you have a civilian who can shoot *very* well but that's an individual who can afford to practice very often.Most citizens can't do that;my ex girlfriend never understood why I spent $50 on a brick of .22LR and gas to drive to the outdoor range once a month, and that's with rimfire ammo! A majority of married gun owners would have real problems at home if wifey discovered $200 range bills every month.

A LEO even if he practices once every three months will be in better shape than 90% of gun store mall ninjas and armed citizens who buy their arms and shuck them under shelves and car seats.
We must remember that those of us who post on forums like these tend to be people who go above and beyond the standard of "buy the gun and stick it on a shelf",someone of that attitude won't bother signing up for an internet forum.

 

[goldenlight]

In my city, I still see a few officers carrying SECOND gen. S&W 659's.

Those pistols have to be 25 years old, at least.

Some people REALLY hate Glocks, I guess.

Given a choice, I'd rather carry my 5906, too.

As it is, my preferred CC weapon is my 6906.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Oh I'm so tagging this one. On duty right now but when I get off I will share my opinions and those of my father. We're both cops, shooters, GLOCK fans and also S&W fans.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Oh I'm so tagging this one. On duty right now but when I get off I will share my opinions and those of my father. We're both cops, shooters, GLOCK fans and also S&W fans.

My father was one of the first police officers in the United States to carry and qualify other officers on GLOCK. Before that he was a S&W Wheelgun guy.

When GLOCK came onto the scene S&W was having troubles with their guns. Yeah, we have good S&W guns but S&W as a customer service related company and quality control company it was not. Their quality was slipping and the same was happening with Colt, Ruger, Remington, Winchester, and others on the American market. GLOCK provided a product that was revolutionary, dead nuts reliable, and they had a great customer service.

They jumped into the market at an amazing lucky moment. The FBI Shootout, Rising crime rates, Cops feeling under gunned, etc... Their marketing was great and they basically gave their guns away to LE Agencies for free. A one to one swap or very little cost per pistol. They would then sell the used on. They took a hit in sales to LEOs not in numbers but in profit. They did so for free marketing. When the civilian populace sees cops everywhere carrying GLOCK they will buy them.

The customer service they provided was amazing and still is to the LE market.

Smith & Wesson on the other hand was floundering. They were producing a different gun a week and had to many models and variations. GLOCK had one and then released a couple of others. They stole the thunder from S&W with releasing the Model 22 in .40 S&W faster then S&W did. It also was lighter, had a higher capacity then the S&W models, and had a single trigger pull from start to finish.

The majority of cops are idiots... they are not gun people. The fact that the GLOCK was and is a safe pistol to carry and has no external safeties made it easier to train officers to carry it. Much like the S&W revolver except it was lighter in weight, had less parts, and carried three times the amount of ammunition then the revolver it replaced.

S&W was later sold to the British holders and that further shot S&W in the foot. Officers would not want to carry pistols that were made because of a political deal with the Clinton/S&W HUD agreement. They want to carry what they think is the best gun. Even HUD's IG Agents carried GLOCK.

The copy and horrid release of the Sigma is further proof that S&W was hurting and hurting bad. They couldn't come up with a design of their own to the point that they did a horrid copy of the GLOCK. They were later sued for it.

The SW99 while a great gun once again showed the market that they couldn't come up with an original design. A Walther pistol in S&W clothing and the further recall issues and failures with the NJ contract (NJ screwed that one up but the general public didn't know the gun was a dud due to NJ requirements and not S&W).

S&W, Colt, Ruger, etc... were all suffering from the mindset of being unbeatable. S&W was dethroned from the top LE market the same way that Toyota dethroned GMC and Ford in the car market.

A dead nuts reliable product at very affordable prices with some revolutionary achievements and great customer service.

S&W is taking back some lost ground but the M&P is also showing issues and S&W is still having customer service issues. While they will bend over backwards they will not admit that their is a problem with the M&P 9mm due to the barrel, chamber size issues and lack of accuracy. Their answer to that is that most shooters can't shoot worth a damn so they won't notice the lack of accuracy. But the problem is bad enough that APEX is going to release a barrel for the gun that solves the problem. S&W is also putting their eggs in the M&P basket... which is smart but stupid at the same time. They are competing against themselves with the Sigma and SD Series on the civilian market.

GLOCK is going to be king for a very long time. The same way that Samuel Colt achieved great success, Gaston Glock did also. GLOCK continues to produce what the customer wants (Government market). S&W keeps trying to have both government contract market and the civilian market at the same time. They need to simply focus on a core group of products for the government market and their pistols will sell will on the civilian market due to the buyers wanting to have what the cops carry.

 

[John3200]

Unless you're a cop that knows something about guns, who cares what LEOs are issued? I mean no disrespect to any officer, I am thankful for them. But the fact of the matter is, most cops don't know diddly about guns and most cops will never use their gun in the line of duty.

Anyone that bases their handgun purchase soley on what LEO uses is ignorant.

Maybe take into account what the high speed units are using. They are the ones buying guns based more on performance.

About Glocks... The last I heard a couple of years ago the actual cost of a model 22 was about $97. How does an all metal gun compete with that.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Unless you're a cop that knows something about guns, who cares what LEOs are issued? I mean no disrespect to any officer, I am thankful for them. But the fact of the matter is, most cops don't know diddly about guns and most cops will never use their gun in the line of duty.

Anyone that bases their handgun purchase soley on what LEO uses is ignorant.

Maybe take into account what the high speed units are using. They are the ones buying guns based more on performance.

About Glocks... The last I heard a couple of years ago the actual cost of a model 22 was about $97. How does an all metal gun compete with that.

The majority of cops and the general gun owning community are idiots and not in anyway firearm experts. The general sales trend in the civilian market has been and always will be copy the cops/military. This goes all the way back to Samuel Colt.

The Colt 1851, 1861, and 1873 sold like hot cakes because guess what? The Military used it. S&W revolvers sold like hot cakes because the majority of cops used them. GLOCK sell like hot cakes because a ton of cops are using them right now.

 

[ikor]

Glock is underbidding everybody and Smith's quality dropped into the tank. Raising prices and cutting quality is not a very good marketing plan but seems to be the one Smith & Wesson has adopted.

Basically this ^^^

 

[baxtersmith]

I came across something on the Memphis PD website about how they went about choosing their last handgun. They ended up with the Sig P229 after rejecting several others, including the Glock 22 and a couple of S&W's. Interesting in that it sounds like an exception to the lowest bidder approach. This is the link: Training Academy
Scroll down to "Firearms Training Unit"

 

[bettis1]

Baxter,

That was an interesting test. If I understand correctly, based on the first paragraph, in 2003 the officers were concerned about their current weapons because of excessive malfunctions. In the last paragraph the officers are able to purchase their S&W weapons and I am assuming that refers to the discontinued weapons that had excessive malfunctions. No model was specified.

During the testing for a replacement firearm, the Sig 2340 and the Smith 4046 were eliminated because of excessive malfunctions. That left the Sig 229, the Smith 99, and the Glock 22 in the running. The final selection was the Sig 229, obviously an excellent choice. However, there is no comment on how the Smith or the Glock fared in the outcome. It would certainly be informative to see the numbers on the testings.

Bob

 

[baxtersmith]

Bob,
I read it the same way...the S&W's they could purchase were their prior weapons. I did see in another source that before they were issued the 229's they had carried S&W's:

Memphis Police Department
Issued the 9×29mmR (.38 Special) S&W Model 10 Military & Police revolver in 19??-1990.

Issued the 9×19mm S&W Model 5946 pistol in 1990-1998.

Issued the 10×21mm (.40 S&W) S&W Model 4043 pistol in 1998-2004.

Issues the 10×21mm (.40 S&W) SIG-Sauer P229 DAO pistol from 2004.

(pw_tennessee - worldinventory)

 

[S. Kelly]

Great post Miami JBT!
Back in 1988, my dept went with Glock 19s. We had tested S&W 659s and loved them, but S&W refused to make a DAO 5906-the 5906 had just come out. S&W didn't think a "custom" gun for one Dept was worth it. So we went with Glock, which is the best thing we ever did.
We wanted a gun that could not be cocked-we had no problems yet, but several pictures of cocked revolvers to suspect's heads didn't make us look too good.
After all was said and done, S&W finally caved in and made a 5946.

 

[CALREB]

Glock, Smith and Wesson, UUHHHHHH, MMMMMMM, I still have a few years to retirement, maybe we can repost this after that and then discuss sales tactics, especially where large agencies are concerned and what gets contracts written.
There does seem to be a drift back to steel guns by some agencies, for WHATEVER reasons.

 

[Muley Gil]

"It was then a combination of timing, user features and price that led to the domination of Glock. By the time most departments decided to switch from revolvers to semiautos, or found their initial semiauto choice wanting somehow, there was the Glock. It was light. It was simple to use, with no safeties to manipulate. It was used the same way the revolver was used, draw point and pull the trigger. No decock, no safety to put back on. It was high capacity. It was reliable. The stockless frame made it somewhat easier for smaller handed shooters than, say, the Beretta 96. Plus, it was cheap to make. Glock was smart enough to combine these factors with aggressive marketing and then product diversity."

Back in the mid 1980s, Gulf States Distributor in Montgomery, Alabama brought a pile of guns to my PD's range. It was there that I fired my first Beretta and my first Glock. I disliked the long DA pull of the Beretta, as well as the overall size. The Glock fit my hand better, was lighter, and had less perceived recoil.

My department required that we purchase our sidearms. When I started there in the '70s, a variety of handguns were being carried, including a number of S&W M59s.

Not long after the Gulf States folks were there, Glock offered us the M17s and M19s at dirt cheap prices. Did I mention that we had to buy our own guns? In addition to liking cheap guns, cops like to carry LIGHT guns. Sam Browne belts, filled with radios, cuffs, flashlights, etc, get havy FAST. And, as mentioned, most cops are NOT gun oriented, they like simple guns. In addition, all it took was a simple phone call to the Glock distributor and spare parts, new sights, and whatever we needed, arrived quickly.

When I went to the police academy, everyone was required to qualify with a revolver. The department issued .38 special ammo for qualification. So, everyone at the PD was familar with double action revolvers. It was fairly easy for most of our cops to learn the Glock.

While I did buy a Glock M19, I used it as a back-up gun, carrying it in an ankle holster. My holster gun remained an aluminum framed full size 1911 that I built myself. But I was in the minority. More and more of my fellow officers bought Glocks.



Oh, one of the guns that I got to shoot on that range day was the Ruger XGI in .308 Winchester. But I'll save that for another thread.

 

[ColColt]

Glocks are not infallible. If ever they made a "Chevette" is was the G30SF. I don't know how many on GT have bewailed this model and it's FTRTB issues...me included. I just got rid of mine as after going to the armorer and pronounced "good to go", it was good to go alright...in the trash. It still had feeding problems and I got rid of it. Too many good 45's out there without having to deal with all that. I wouldn't buy another one of their plastic wonders.

In light of all this talk, maybe we should just go with the HK-in fact, I did.

The LEO's at work carry 40 cal Glocks and I asked one the other week what they carried and he didn't even know!!

 

[Have gun-will travel]

My dept just issued new Sig p226's in 40 S&W.I absolutely HATE this pistol.The trigger is the worst trigger I have ever felt on a out of the box pistol.It feels like a 12 to 15 pound DA pull and single action is pushing 6 pounds.It is also very gritty.The dept got rid of our p226 stainless pistols because Sig did not have replacement parts since they discontinued the all stainless guns.Some lame excuse!.All the surrounding depts have gone to the S&W M&P.Durham city and County ,Person county SD, NCSHP.Raleigh PD and heard last week that CHPD is getting rid of their Glocks and Switching to the M&P..I personally carry a M&P as my Off duty pistol and own 4 of them in different calibers and love them all.I think S&W has a hit with the M&P.

 

[bettis1]

In this morning's newspaper advertisement, the Academy Sports Stores are advertising Sigmas for less than $278. It is apparent that if price was the only criterion, the majority of PD's would be carrying Sigmas instead of Glocks.

When each of us, as individuals, select a personal firearm we make that determination based on multiple factors even though we don't consciously verbalize them all. Law enforcement agencies do the same but the metrics they use are designed to meet the needs of a broad range of users instead of just one individual. Some of the factors we have mentioned here are price, ergonomics, ease of training, reliability, magazine capacity, serviceability, availability, etc. Most of the agencies may actually use the same criteria as their fellow agencies, however, they may weigh the assets and liabilities differently.

To answer the OP's question directly, the reason that the Glock was selected was that it effectively addressed the specific needs of the department that was evaluating new weapons. Of course, those needs are constantly under review and future trends will depend upon user evaluation of their current firearm and the availability of new firearms that come into the picture when they come up for review

Bob.

 

[fighter62]

I have to jump in

I keep hearing about Glocks " Price advantage".

I (and many people I know) buy Glocks WITHOUT any "price factor".

I own a G34 GEN3 and Glock 22 GEN4.
Will be buying a Glock 17 GEN4 next.

I carry a Glock on my hip most of the time (On and off duty)

I own (and carry sometimes) many other handguns.

I can afford to buy a SIG,HK USP ( which I sold) , Custom 1911's, Smith and Wesson Perforamnce Center pistols etc. I own some very good, expensive handguns.

To many people ,who ACTUALLY CARRY pistols all the time, Glock is a choice.

Not because of price.