Information on "Shames"

[Sebago Son]

Indeed it is a myth and a big one. Here is a fact about guns being a good financial investment. Consider this: If you had invested $1 in the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) on January 1,1975, ignoring taxes, reinvesting all dividends, and unadjusted for inflation, it would have grown to approximately $97 today, i.e., in today's inflated dollars. Let's just say for simplicity a growth of 100X over 50 years in the stock market, or about a 9.5% annualized rate of return over that time period. What gun that you could have bought for $100 in 1975 would be worth buying for $10,000 today? I would say $500-1000 would be much more realistic than $10,000. And what guns would appreciate in value by 9.5% every year for 50 years? I'd like to buy one. So which is the better investment, guns or the stock market? There were mutual funds based on tracking the DJIA available in 1975 that still exist today, so my rate of return calculation presented above is accurate and fully supportable. In summary, as financial investments, guns suck.

You sure you are doing it right? As one small example, there isn't one of these 28s in this bunch that I paid more than $350 for in the past 10 years. What is this pile worth today? Pre-28s, 28 NO DASH, 28-2 & 28-3. On of each lenght, plus a few more. Before you say, be sure to count the side plate screws. Most have boxes. Best part? No Load. I would gladly take Smith & Wessons every day over the ever decreasing value of dollars.

 

[DWalt]

I do not believe you understood my statement. It has nothing to do with what kind or how many guns with however many screws you bought in 1975, or how much you paid for them then. Unless you can get around 100x of what you paid for them in 1975 by selling them TODAY, you would have been monetarily better off spending the amount you paid in 1975 for your guns on buying into a DJIA mutual fund in 1975 instead. Look up the term Return on Investment. The DJIA fund's value TODAY will likely be far greater than you could get by selling your guns TODAY as the fund produces a far greater ROI than the sale of the guns can TODAY. Another way of saying that the value of the 1975 mutual fund appreciates far more over 50 years than the increase in value of all the guns bought for the same total dollar amount in 1975. Example- take a Model 28 you paid $350 for in 1975. If you instead spent that $350 on buying a DJIA fund, that fund's value would have grown to 100x$350 = $35,000 today. What do you think your Model 28 would sell for today? It sure wouldn't be $35,000. If it sells for $2000, you are in the hole for $33,000 you could have collected had if you spent that $350 on the mutual fund instead. Interesting fact. Had you put $10K in that same fund in 1975, you would have been a millionaire today, and could buy hundreds of vintage Model 28s, NIB. Understanding knowledge of the time value of money is how millionaires become billionaires. I know you did not buy your guns in 1975, but the same type of analysis applies for any time duration you wish. But the numbers will change proportionally. And the fact that guns suck as investment vehicles will remain intact. They are toys, not investments, and only very rarely will they be anything else, e.g., guns with unique histories like George Washington's pistols, Jack Ruby's revolver, guns used at Bunker Hill, etc.

 

[Golddollar]

I have a gun that would probably top the List of Shame. When I started out with Cowboy Action Shooting, I needed to get a shotgun. I went to a gun show, and I found a Stevens Model 311 double barrel shotgun in 12 gauge. To say that the finish on the barrels was a mess would be a grand understatement. The story I got was that the gun was left out in a boat and then it rained. The original finish was wrecked, so the prior owner put cold blue on the barrels. That probably wasn't much of an improvement but at least there was no rust on the outside of the barrels. The bores were fine.

This gun would probably gag a maggot, but to me it was perfect. At the Virginia State SASS Championship I found a vendor who could laser burn stocks and I had my alias, SASS badge number and an image of a groundhog burned into the stock (my alias is Punxsutawney Pete). It may have been a shame that the original finish on this gun was ruined, but this gun will have to be taken from my cold, dead fingers.

 

[DWalt]

Opooo"

I have a gun that would probably top the List of Shame. When I started out with Cowboy Action Shooting, I needed to get a shotgun. I went to a gun show, and I found a Stevens Model 311 double barrel shotgun in 12 gauge. To say that the finish on the barrels was a mess would be a grand understatement. The story I got was that the gun was left out in a boat and then it rained. The original finish was wrecked, so the prior owner put cold blue on the barrels. That probably wasn't much of an improvement but at least there was no rust on the outside of the barrels. The bores were fine.

This gun would probably gag a maggot, but to me it was perfect. At the Virginia State SASS Championship I found a vendor who could laser burn stocks and I had my alias, SASS badge number and an image of a groundhog burned into the stock (my alias is Punxsutawney Pete). It may have been a shame that the original finish on this gun was ruined, but this gun will have to be taken from my cold, dead fingers.

Back in my Cowboy days of 25 years ago, the more the shotguns were "distressed" the better. I used a beat-up Model 97 with nearly no original finish. But it worked. Several years later I polished and hot blued it, looked pretty good. But I had stopped CAS by then and I sold it.

 

[RebCop]

A while back, seems like everything is a while back,
Ran into an Old Buddy at a Gun Show.
We just cruising around , chatting and looking at the guns.
Then we see this Nagant Carbine.
John picks it up. He's way more familiar with them that I am.
He looks confused, I look closer then I'm confused .
Dated early 1940s, and it looks brand new!
1940s, the Russians were under the gun, sending folks into combat with shovels, and here's a gun that looks brand new!
So was it really one that got overlooked? Or is there some type of replica?
And if it got overlooked and unissued there, how did it get here?

A lot came in in the 90's. Some that had never been issued.

 

[Tommezgun]

A lot came in in the 90's. Some that had never been issued.

I bought a Nagant carbine in the early to mid 2000s. I happened to go to a local gun/surplus store, and they had a crate or 2 of them. I like military rifles and the price was $114. It looked unissued to me, but I bought it to shoot. I see them at gun shows with considerably higher prices. They had some of the rifles that were in not as good condition as the carbines and at a lower price, but I bought the better-looking firearm. I guess I am just petty that way.

 

[sophie]

I must not get out enough, I've never seen that term used on a firearm forum. Of course there is some evidence that I'm a little "slow".

I've not seen or heard the term either.

 

[HamBoneZ]

I shoot, I hunt, and on occasion, I will collect if the opportunity allows. Some of those firearms I will keep as original as possible, keeping patina, patina, scratches, dents, as original as possible that don't effect function.

That said I do have some that I'm working on just for me, I don't care what it does for the value, I'm making it look nice to me. Like all my other pieces I don't care if you don't like it, it's there for my own self enjoyment.

Here's a few rescues I've made. Each are usable, the Enfield mk2 I'm getting cerakoted just because I hate that black nasty coating they had on the gun, it just drove me crazy.

 

[davek42_43130]

I have no issues with refinished guns as long as someone's not trying to pass it off as original. But it will reflect on the value of the gun to me. Most of us old timers can tell if a guns been redone, but we can all get fooled. If the price is right for you. Buy it, enjoy it. I'm much rather have a well worn S&W than a new Taurus at the same price. But that's my2 cents.

 

[GaryBrantley]

I've shown this in another thread, but this Python was given to me by a dear friend, now passed. He had been given the pistol by the original owner's brother. The original owner had bought it sometimes in the 1970s, I believe. It was originally a nickel-plated 6" model. The owner had some mental issues and at one point, got into a confrontation with some Sheriff's Deputies. At some point in the confrontation, guns were drawn and Dan, the original owner, had a pistol shot out of his hand. One of the deputies later told my friend that after being shot, Dan told the deputy, "Goddamn, good shot!". Dan then spent some time in the nervous hospital and while away, his brother hid his guns. This Python sat in a cardboard box on a shelf in an old abandoned barn for maybe 20 years. When my friend, Joe, was given it by Dan's brother, it looked like this:

I told Joe that it might could be "saved" by having it refinished. I suggested that since it was in pretty bad shape, he might could have it parkerized for a different look. We took it to Randy Kline, aka Sledgehammer, in Jacksonville, Texas. Randy is a master gunsmith and has built several FAL rifles for me. Randy said that the most expensive part of the refinish was having to send the pistol away to have the nickel coating electro-chemically removed in Houston. Joe put the Pachymar grips on after getting it back.

Most purists would say that it was a shame to do that to an old Python. And maybe they're right. But, to my eyes, it was much improved over it's previous condition and the result is somewhat unusual as well.

 

[30-30remchester]

I am a purist at heart but Gary there is a time and place, and this old Python is a perfect candidate for a do over. You took an almost unusable gun and made it a viable workhorse again. Good job! What I cherish is a gun's history, I admire a well-worn gun. I have told my grandsons that when they inherit my old model 70 or Colt Woodsman that is they even think about ruining it with a re-finish that I will rise from the earth and beat them senseless with a dirty diaper. Every scratch, abrasion and bump tells my story. I sometime carry a 1936 vintage Winchester 94 carbine when I go out into the woods for a day or two. I acquired it in a trade, and it has zero bluing left and little finish on the stock, but you can tell it was not abused and well taken care of. Sitting next to a campfire looking at it leaning against the nearest tree, I can only image the stories it could tell.

 

[DWalt]

I shoot, I hunt, and on occasion, I will collect if the opportunity allows. Some of those firearms I will keep as original as possible, keeping patina, patina, scratches, dents, as original as possible that don't

Here's a few rescues I've made. Each are usable, the Enfield mk2 I'm getting cerakoted just because I hate that black nasty coating they had on the gun, it just drove me crazy.

The black nasty coating was the original and correct Suncorite paint finish that the British used on their guns. I have read that it had been a civilian high temperature black paint intended for use on coal and wood-burning stoves, and used because it was very durable and provided good corrosion protection. Allegedly it is no longer made and used as it is a carcinogen. Probably would be a better idea to leave the present finish alone for the sake of originality. Or maybe use this. https://www.desertfoxsales.com/BRITISH_BLACK_GUN_SPRAY_PAINT_p/dfs-344.htm

 

[Malkovich]

I still have the model 10-5 service revolver I was issued in 1969. It's worn , most of the blueing is non existent. The stocks are worn with little detail remaining and my DNA is enbeded in every crevice. It has been down many a dark alley and never once told anyone how tightly I was puckered. Some would consider it to be down right ugly. The history of that gun is priceless to me. To reblue would be erasing all that history.
I do have several reblued guns, there's no sin in doing so. But that 10-5 will never be one of them. That 10-5 is simply beautiful.

Would like to see the 10-5 in its original glory.
I agree with both sides of the debate, I can see the patina and history being of great significance.
I have a well worn 10-8, it's tight with excellent timing and an amazing trigger. I've wrestled with sending it to S&W to get re-blued. The patina is age correct, 80's NYC Police, but a nice deep blue could be fantastic.

 

[shep854]

I wish I could be around in about 50 years when threads start popping up about the crazy custom Cerakote guns of the last few decades...

 

[BloodyThumb]

I've shown this in another thread, but this Python was given to me by a dear friend, now passed. He had been given the pistol by the original owner's brother. The original owner had bought it sometimes in the 1970s, I believe. It was originally a nickel-plated 6" model. The owner had some mental issues and at one point, got into a confrontation with some Sheriff's Deputies. At some point in the confrontation, guns were drawn and Dan, the original owner, had a pistol shot out of his hand. One of the deputies later told my friend that after being shot, Dan told the deputy, "Goddamn, good shot!". Dan then spent some time in the nervous hospital and while away, his brother hid his guns. This Python sat in a cardboard box on a shelf in an old abandoned barn for maybe 20 years. When my friend, Joe, was given it by Dan's brother, it looked like this:

I told Joe that it might could be "saved" by having it refinished. I suggested that since it was in pretty bad shape, he might could have it parkerized for a different look. We took it to Randy Kline, aka Sledgehammer, in Jacksonville, Texas. Randy is a master gunsmith and has built several FAL rifles for me. Randy said that the most expensive part of the refinish was having to send the pistol away to have the nickel coating electro-chemically removed in Houston. Joe put the Pachymar grips on after getting it back.

Most purists would say that it was a shame to do that to an old Python. And maybe they're right. But, to my eyes, it was much improved over it's previous condition and the result is somewhat unusual as well.

I LIKE it! Looks more like a tool than a jewel. I'd buy that assuming it shoots as tough as it looks.

 

[Sebago Son]

I do not believe you understood my statement. ..

Understand mine... which would you rather own tomorrow? Or next year? $10,000 worth of useless paper or $10,000 worth of collectible Smith & Wessons? I rest my case.

 

[M14sRock]

People are odd about things. I have seen people abandon a firearm because it has a scratch and others do a complete refinish should a small imperfection is detected (visit my brother as an example). Other like the Japanese culture where damage is highlighted. If a jade object has cracks, they highlight the cracks with gold inlay. I like these types of people. A friend was a mountain lion guide and carried a 6" model 19 for so many years during his career that it was virtually bluing free and the grips worn smooth. He said it was never out of arm's length. All evidence of a fabulous adventurous lifetime. His brother sneaked it out of the house and had it re-blued and threw away the grips and put brand new ones on, then returned the gun as a Christmas present. Completely destroyed its storied life. My friend has never shot the gun again and last time I asked, he didn't even know where it was.

I would be devastated over this. They never look right until they have some scratches and wear, anyway.

 

[shep854]

It depends on the gun. My M49, bought well-used and carried for years in a leather holster--and shot a lot!--has lots of wear on the cylinder and muzzles, as well as scratches and rust pitting from sweaty carry. That little blaster will NEVER get refinished-just respectfully wiped down with oil.
OTOH, I have a pre-B CZ75 with box and and papers that I Cerakoted because the cheap enamel bubbled very easily.