Modern auto loaders make sense for law enforcement and they get the requisite training to handle those weapons efficiently and safely. Anyone else who has the responsibility for protecting large groups of innocents should also consider this platform, but not w/o good training & practice. Whatever weapons system you pick, handling the gun should become second nature so you are safe not only in the holster but deployed in an attack.
Irresponsible to carry a revolver to protect others?
- Thread starter bushmaster1313
- Start date
silentflyer
Member
Carry what you shoot the best....
Rpg
Member
If the discussion boils down to ammo capacity differences between a revolver and a pistol, the discussion is misleading.
The appropriate focus is on what gun you can shoot well at longer distances than are commonly associated with typical sd applications.
In this light, tiny 380's and j frames are disqualified for the vast majority of shooters. They simply can't reliably hit at 25 yards with such weapons.
This leaves full sized pistols such as 1911's and K frame revolvers as the guns of choice.
The issue isn't how many shots you can get off before reloading but rather what you can hit with.
I'm always amused by those who must be planning to miss a lot, so they think they need a large capacity gun, offering themselves up as protectors.
The appropriate focus is on what gun you can shoot well at longer distances than are commonly associated with typical sd applications.
In this light, tiny 380's and j frames are disqualified for the vast majority of shooters. They simply can't reliably hit at 25 yards with such weapons.
This leaves full sized pistols such as 1911's and K frame revolvers as the guns of choice.
The issue isn't how many shots you can get off before reloading but rather what you can hit with.
I'm always amused by those who must be planning to miss a lot, so they think they need a large capacity gun, offering themselves up as protectors.
Pisgah
Member
First of all, it is a good idea to keep in mind that there are an estimated 400,000 churches in the US, and that the average number of church shootings annually in the past 10 years has been just under 15. That means that in the average year, the every-Sunday churchgoer has about a .0000375% chance of encountering an in-church shooter. That's about 1 chance in 27,000 of any church suffering an armed attack in a year, compared to an individual's 1-in-6,225 chance of dying in a car crash in my state of SC in the same year.
Now, that's not 0%, so there is some justification for concern, in spite of the fact that it is a very, very small one. But it does show that there are probably more important things to think about in church than carrying a gun.
That said, I live in a state where concealed carry in church is legal with the approval of the individual church's ruling body, and my church's ruling body has no objection to it -- although they do not actively encourage it. Since I carry everywhere that concealed carry is not legally prohibited, I carry in church.
Frankly, as in most self-defense situations, my belief is that the fact of having a gun far outweighs exactly the type of gun I am carrying. Mindset -- awareness of your surroundings and having an idea of tactics that might be required in a given situation -- is a far more important factor. I have seen a 90-pound unarmed girl completely destroy a 220-pound male assailant via the means of one swift, well-timed-and-placed kick to the crotch. The well-executed surprise kick served her as well as, if not better than, a gun would have.
My mindset is such that if all I have is my .380 Beretta Pico my odds against an AR-wielding bad guy can be better than even, especially in a situation where he is likely unaware that any armed opposition is present. And since I am not going to don body armor and sling my AR to go to church, that's enough to make me comfortable, albeit alert.
Now, that's not 0%, so there is some justification for concern, in spite of the fact that it is a very, very small one. But it does show that there are probably more important things to think about in church than carrying a gun.
That said, I live in a state where concealed carry in church is legal with the approval of the individual church's ruling body, and my church's ruling body has no objection to it -- although they do not actively encourage it. Since I carry everywhere that concealed carry is not legally prohibited, I carry in church.
Frankly, as in most self-defense situations, my belief is that the fact of having a gun far outweighs exactly the type of gun I am carrying. Mindset -- awareness of your surroundings and having an idea of tactics that might be required in a given situation -- is a far more important factor. I have seen a 90-pound unarmed girl completely destroy a 220-pound male assailant via the means of one swift, well-timed-and-placed kick to the crotch. The well-executed surprise kick served her as well as, if not better than, a gun would have.
My mindset is such that if all I have is my .380 Beretta Pico my odds against an AR-wielding bad guy can be better than even, especially in a situation where he is likely unaware that any armed opposition is present. And since I am not going to don body armor and sling my AR to go to church, that's enough to make me comfortable, albeit alert.
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sousana
Member
One would assume you'd want to carry what YOU are best suited to use, not what I am best suited for.
I've shot for 47 years with the majority of that in one form of competition or other, and I use 1911's as my Primary carry and competition and I am quite proficient with the 1911 platform, but I am not ashamed to say I've had my pants beat off me from guys using revolvers, and this includes speed loads. Anyone ever see Jerry Miculek compete with a revolver????
The most important thing in a lethal confrontation is to stay calm, find COVER, and SHOT PLACEMENT. Not do as the Russians plan on doing when they take out an american CVN. Launch 1000 missiles and know that at least 5 will hit.
I've shot for 47 years with the majority of that in one form of competition or other, and I use 1911's as my Primary carry and competition and I am quite proficient with the 1911 platform, but I am not ashamed to say I've had my pants beat off me from guys using revolvers, and this includes speed loads. Anyone ever see Jerry Miculek compete with a revolver????
The most important thing in a lethal confrontation is to stay calm, find COVER, and SHOT PLACEMENT. Not do as the Russians plan on doing when they take out an american CVN. Launch 1000 missiles and know that at least 5 will hit.
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I carry an airweight snub revolver most of the time and feel it's probably adequate(plus it offers certain ECQ advantages) for the vast majority of defense scenarios I'm most likely to encounter, but that's not really what is being discussed here.
Intentionally engaging an active-shooter at distance is very different than your typical civilian self-defense encounter. The shooter will most likely be armed with at least a high capacity pistol if not an assault-rifle. He very well could be wearing body armor and he will likely be suicidal, so he will not be easily deterred and will be hard to stop. The odds of such an event are so astronomically rare to be all that concerned with, but that's the topic at hand nonetheless.
"It's the Indian, not the Arrow"....
To use martial arts as an analogy- some will claim it's the fighter not the style that matters and there is obviously a great deal of truth to that, but the style also matters a great deal and those with actual experience know it. I have come across numerous traditional martial art instructors over the years who are very critical of things like mixed martial arts, force on force training and even freestyle sparring. They make bold claims about what they could or would do, but have never once proved it nor pressure-tested anything they promote. It's the same thing with shooters and gun choice and anonymous posters on Internet gun forums.
If you can shoot a double-action revolver well, I don't know why you would have problems with a striker-fired auto. I have spent a lot more time practicing with my snub revolver compared with my Glock 26, but I still shoot the Glock better and the Glock 19/17 better still.
And how do revolvers work for many members here? Demonstrating proficiency shooting static targets from a static stance at the range isn't the same as performing effectively in an actual gunfight with an active-shooter. I would expect most people's hit ratio to not be all that stellar if engaging a homicidal/suicudal AR/AK wielding assailant at longer ranges.
It's very easy to claim that you're capable of making precise shots during the chaos of a gunfight, but saying and doing are two different things. And even if you are able to put rounds into the assailant, it may take multiple hits to actually stop them if we are dealing with a determined attacker and in the case of a church shooting, I think we likely would be.
Most civilian defense scenarios are resolved by simply presenting the weapon or as soon as shots are fired. Disengagement is the goal and the bad guys usually immediately flee since there generally is nothing at stake worth shooting it out. Determined attackers are much more commonly encountered by law enforcement since there is much more at stake. If tasked with defending the church against a suicidal active-shooter, then I think you are much more likely to potentially see a dynamic similar to what's seen in police conflicts play out rather than typical civilian self-defense if an attack occurs and you should plan accordingly considering what it can take to stop a determined attacker.
ContinentalOp
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My thoughts, for whatever they're worth...
The most important thing is carrying a reliable gun that you are competent with. Well, second most important thing. The most important thing is to be aware and observant and try to prevent an incident if possible.
Personally, in the situation you describe where I'd be responsible for protecting others, I would lean towards a compact semi-auto, like a Glock 19, for the reasons mentioned by Rpg and Mister X, IF I could shoot it well and I could effectively conceal it.
However, I would NOT go so far as to say it's irresponsible to carry a revolver for such duty. There are lots of variables to consider, and each person's situation is going to be different, slightly or significantly.
I would add that if I were in a such a position, I would make sure I had a trauma kit on me and know how to use it. If an active shooter incident were to happen, it's possible, or even likely, that people may get hurt before I, or anyone else, could intervene. Being able to triage and stop bleeding could prove to be just as important in terms of saving lives as having the means to stop an attacker(s).
In other words, it depends.
Just my opinion.
The most important thing is carrying a reliable gun that you are competent with. Well, second most important thing. The most important thing is to be aware and observant and try to prevent an incident if possible.
Personally, in the situation you describe where I'd be responsible for protecting others, I would lean towards a compact semi-auto, like a Glock 19, for the reasons mentioned by Rpg and Mister X, IF I could shoot it well and I could effectively conceal it.
However, I would NOT go so far as to say it's irresponsible to carry a revolver for such duty. There are lots of variables to consider, and each person's situation is going to be different, slightly or significantly.
I would add that if I were in a such a position, I would make sure I had a trauma kit on me and know how to use it. If an active shooter incident were to happen, it's possible, or even likely, that people may get hurt before I, or anyone else, could intervene. Being able to triage and stop bleeding could prove to be just as important in terms of saving lives as having the means to stop an attacker(s).
In other words, it depends.
Just my opinion.
I've spoken to law enforcement professionals, who say that perhaps 20-25% of all rounds expended in gunfights hit the target. That's pretty awful, when qualified, trained people are involved.
The civilian concealed carrier hopefully may be able to better than figure, but the environment in a house of worship or public gathering could be much different. "Target fixation" may be present, and panicked people will be running here and there, and unobserved, may obscure the target just as a round is fired.
It takes a pretty cool head to observe, assess and act, especially when adrenaline is running full tilt, without endangering those that a person is trying to protect.
The civilian concealed carrier hopefully may be able to better than figure, but the environment in a house of worship or public gathering could be much different. "Target fixation" may be present, and panicked people will be running here and there, and unobserved, may obscure the target just as a round is fired.
It takes a pretty cool head to observe, assess and act, especially when adrenaline is running full tilt, without endangering those that a person is trying to protect.
Firespec35
Member
I can tell you there was a time I did medical standbys for the Catholic Archdiocies of Detroit at the church that was the home to the Archbishop. I worked pretty close with the security team there. It was a pretty eclectic mix of retired and active cops and a few ex-military. Most of the young guys and a few of the old carried semi autos. But there was 1 group of guys all retired mostly ex detectives that carried these beat up snubbies. They all did the rubber bands over these classic old school skinny grips. You know what I think I had more faith in that group of guys to make a great shot than all the rest.
All in all great group of guys. I'm not religious but still miss that detail.
All in all great group of guys. I'm not religious but still miss that detail.
TomkinsSP
Member
In other words, it depends.
Just my opinion.
Could not agree more.
Seriously: Rule one, bring a gun (you are proficient in the use of).
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keith44spl
Member
I've never seen ya shoot..........
You'll just have to pick one or the other, and er mabee jest carry both.
.
You'll just have to pick one or the other, and er mabee jest carry both.
.
WheelGuy357
Member
I wouldn't call it irresponsible to carry a revolver to defend yourself or others(if legal to do so). More responsible if you ask me. Carrying a firearm itself is a huge responsibility. You are carrying and chose to be prepared for sake of yourself and others.
I think it would be irresponsible to carry a weapon platform you have no training with.
Irresponsible could be your decision on how to access the fight at the moment, be it with a pistol or revolver depending on the situation.
I think it would be irresponsible to carry a weapon platform you have no training with.
Irresponsible could be your decision on how to access the fight at the moment, be it with a pistol or revolver depending on the situation.
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wrkerr
Member
Do you plan on missing a lot?
nachogrande
Member
"PLANNING ON MISSING?"
I kinda doubt anyone plans on doing it. It is a very real possibility however, and I can hardly imagine a place more likely for a miss or pass thru to hit a good guy. Taking out 1 of your fellow church members would be hard to live with. The very real possibility of multiple shooters and a prolonged fight???
Hone those skills before taking on such a daunting task, AND DON'T MISS.
I kinda doubt anyone plans on doing it. It is a very real possibility however, and I can hardly imagine a place more likely for a miss or pass thru to hit a good guy. Taking out 1 of your fellow church members would be hard to live with. The very real possibility of multiple shooters and a prolonged fight???
Hone those skills before taking on such a daunting task, AND DON'T MISS.
I've never seen ya shoot..........
You'll just have to pick one or the other, and er mabee jest carry both.
.
I would need to carry one in a shoulder holster or have a good set of suspenders. It's hard enough to keep my pants up with one.
LarryFlyingfool
Member
Police shooting studies show that even trained law enforcement miss on average 80% of the shots fired. Put another way, the "hit rate" was only 20%. Of course the distance mattered with closer higher and further away lower. But if I remember the studies (NYC & Detroit) even 10 feet or less they still missed 60% of the time.
My take away is that people less exlerienced and trained than law enforcement officers will likely have no better results and most likely far worse results. So you may as well count that you will miss at least half (50%) of the shots fired. All the more reason to make damn sure you have no other alternative at your disposal before drawing and firing your weapon.
Automatic Physiological things occur which no human has control over. Adrenaline will be released which causes shaky hands etc. which will negatively affect accuracy of shooting as well as dexterity to reload. training is huge and will help to minimize messing up. But as seen in the studies of police shootings. The human biological effects are real and significant and cannot be overlooked. Even the best most highly trained individual is NOT immune from these real physiological responses.
A person may be able to shoot a fly off a cows rear end at 25 yards at the range. But when the **** hits the fan, they will be damned lucky To hit a human at 10 feet with 50% of the shots fired in the real world.
All the more reason if possible to train when out of breath and/or under stress.
One saying to remember: "You will only fight like you train."
Training matters! And I know many people who carry frequently but never shoot 200 rounds a year! I encourage them that they really need to either get more training, or stop carrying.
So to the OP post. The most important thing is to know BOTH your own AND your guns limitations. If you choose to carry a 5 or 6 shot revolver, know that you must be close to your target As you may only hit the bad guy with 2 shots. And with shaky hands and a speed loader may be very difficult to accomplish. A magazine fed weapon hopefully decreases your need to have to do a reload. But smaller pocket pistols may only have 6 or 7 shots.
And even though you are in church, it is not a good idea to use the spray and pray method simply because you have 16 rounds in the gun or on your person.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
My take away is that people less exlerienced and trained than law enforcement officers will likely have no better results and most likely far worse results. So you may as well count that you will miss at least half (50%) of the shots fired. All the more reason to make damn sure you have no other alternative at your disposal before drawing and firing your weapon.
Automatic Physiological things occur which no human has control over. Adrenaline will be released which causes shaky hands etc. which will negatively affect accuracy of shooting as well as dexterity to reload. training is huge and will help to minimize messing up. But as seen in the studies of police shootings. The human biological effects are real and significant and cannot be overlooked. Even the best most highly trained individual is NOT immune from these real physiological responses.
A person may be able to shoot a fly off a cows rear end at 25 yards at the range. But when the **** hits the fan, they will be damned lucky To hit a human at 10 feet with 50% of the shots fired in the real world.
All the more reason if possible to train when out of breath and/or under stress.
One saying to remember: "You will only fight like you train."
Training matters! And I know many people who carry frequently but never shoot 200 rounds a year! I encourage them that they really need to either get more training, or stop carrying.
So to the OP post. The most important thing is to know BOTH your own AND your guns limitations. If you choose to carry a 5 or 6 shot revolver, know that you must be close to your target As you may only hit the bad guy with 2 shots. And with shaky hands and a speed loader may be very difficult to accomplish. A magazine fed weapon hopefully decreases your need to have to do a reload. But smaller pocket pistols may only have 6 or 7 shots.
And even though you are in church, it is not a good idea to use the spray and pray method simply because you have 16 rounds in the gun or on your person.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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John H
Member
As above........ carry whatever you are most familiar and proficient with.
sousana
Member
"A person may be able to shoot a fly off a cows rear end at 25 yards at the range. But when the **** hits the fan, they will be damned lucky To hit a human at 10 feet with 50% of the shots fired in the real world.
All the more reason if possible to train when out of breath and/or under stress." By Flyingfool
One reason my Gunny in the Corps, had us shoot the USMC qual course in the morning, followed by a very energetic excercise perioed followed by shooting the qual course again. He was NOT happy until your scores were close enough to touch. He said this way was more real world under fire, your adrenaline was pumping, breathing hard, sweating and tired aproximated combat, and many here can attest to that.
All the more reason if possible to train when out of breath and/or under stress." By Flyingfool
One reason my Gunny in the Corps, had us shoot the USMC qual course in the morning, followed by a very energetic excercise perioed followed by shooting the qual course again. He was NOT happy until your scores were close enough to touch. He said this way was more real world under fire, your adrenaline was pumping, breathing hard, sweating and tired aproximated combat, and many here can attest to that.
