Is the 9mm really that poor?

[SgtSam]

Look, a lot of people can quote chapter and verse about this caliber vs that caliber. This incident proves this or that over that and those. Etc., etc., etc.

I have an 87 year old uncle who was hit six times by a German light machine gun during WWII. He sustained hits in the shoulder and back. The gun spun him as he went down, he was seriously injured, but he survived. I'm sure the German threw his machine gun away after that and got himself a good old G.I. 1911 as "they all fall to hardball".

I read about a LEO not to long ago that survived a head shot, virtually point blank, with a .45 ACP (no jokes about hard heads or nothing between the ears please).

The point is, many people who carry all sorts of guns in all sorts of calibers, in most instances are well armed if they know what their doing. If they don't, a damn RPG won't help. There is no "magic bullet", or magic caliber for that matter, or, come to think of magic gun. HA, to me, one of the best ways to attack is to carpet bomb with a B-52. And even then, some of the SOB's survive.

So, don't get your shorts in a knot over your carry cartridge. As has been so often said, find a gun you like, can shoot well, can afford to shoot often, pick the best round available (out of many that are), and practice, practice, practice. In most instances, you'll be way ahead of the bad guy.

SgtSam

 

[Poohgyrr]

The average big city police department is an intensely political entity. Don't assume that its choice of firearms and ammunition is immune from those politics.

Unfortunately, politics is found in a lot of places.....

And, lots of people have been stopped by 9X19 ball. Even 00 buckshot, which is smaller in diameter and lighter, seems to work.

 

[enidpd804]

Look, a lot of people can quote chapter and verse about this caliber vs that caliber. This incident proves this or that over that and those. Etc., etc., etc.

I have an 87 year old uncle who was hit six times by a German light machine gun during WWII. He sustained hits in the shoulder and back. The gun spun him as he went down, he was seriously injured, but he survived. I'm sure the German threw his machine gun away after that and got himself a good old G.I. 1911 as "they all fall to hardball".

I read about a LEO not to long ago that survived a head shot, virtually point blank, with a .45 ACP (no jokes about hard heads or nothing between the ears please).

The point is, many people who carry all sorts of guns in all sorts of calibers, in most instances are well armed if they know what their doing. If they don't, a damn RPG won't help. There is no "magic bullet", or magic caliber for that matter, or, come to think of magic gun. HA, to me, one of the best ways to attack is to carpet bomb with a B-52. And even then, some of the SOB's survive.

So, don't get your shorts in a knot over your carry cartridge. As has been so often said, find a gun you like, can shoot well, can afford to shoot often, pick the best round available (out of many that are), and practice, practice, practice. In most instances, you'll be way ahead of the bad guy.

SgtSam

You are very, very (1) right (2) wasting your time.

I've been privy to or involved in the investigations of several shootings. Birdshot is not effective at across the room distances no matter how much the shooter thinks it should or wants it to be. In my experience and research, there's little difference between the best 9,40,45 or the worst of the same.

I've also watched several i'net caliber wars. We'd all be better served worrying about practice and training than "mine's better than yours."

 

[4864]

Shot placement. That is what stops some one who intends to do harm. I feel comfortable packing any of my 9mm pistols or my Kel-Tec P3AT. The Kel-Tec is a tack driver.

 

[oldman45]

Seems like more than a couple of the posters here aren't aware of advances in bullet design. "Black Talon" was a third generation hollow point, and it's performance, while pretty good, has been eclipsed by newer designs.

Ballistic testing of the latest HP defensive rounds show that there is not enough difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 to say that any one in particular is the top performer. Note that this is with the newest designs; when comparing older bullet designs, bigger was almost always better. Not so anymore, and as a fan of 1911's in .45acp I almost find this to be sort of galling

Google up Dr. G.K. Roberts, or the IWBA (International Wound Ballistics Assoc.) if you really want to learn more.

Meantime, here's some good light reading: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

And, as said many times already, only hits count.

Advances in ammo that improved the 9mm type has also improved the other calibers.

Carry what you want, shoot what you will and live with your decision.

 

[oldman45]

Seems like more than a couple of the posters here aren't aware of advances in bullet design. "Black Talon" was a third generation hollow point, and it's performance, while pretty good, has been eclipsed by newer designs.

Ballistic testing of the latest HP defensive rounds show that there is not enough difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 to say that any one in particular is the top performer. Note that this is with the newest designs; when comparing older bullet designs, bigger was almost always better. Not so anymore, and as a fan of 1911's in .45acp I almost find this to be sort of galling

Google up Dr. G.K. Roberts, or the IWBA (International Wound Ballistics Assoc.) if you really want to learn more.

Meantime, here's some good light reading: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

And, as said many times already, only hits count.

Good grief man, you are causing me to write a book on this response.

Black talon may have been third generation but it is still the only type ammo that is banned by state law in many states. The AMA came out strongly against it and articles are being written about it today. Finding the original black talon at a gun show will cost you about $3 per bullet. I have seen it as low as a dollar and as high as $5. Admittedly, there were and are bullets out there just as effective and likely moreso.

Not really sure where you get your info on the ballistics being close. The FBI @ Quantico did a lot of studies as has many other think tanks and their findings came out showing a large difference. I felt the FBI study was a waste of taxpayer money but they will waste it one way or another.

Googling up any expert would only show a single person's view. Each time I testify in court as an expert, there have been another expert testify for the differing view. It is like the government. You have Obama's view, McCain's view and maybe 300 million other views. So far, in 38 yrs, I have not lost in court against some of the best in the world. But then it is still just my view based on education, training, experience, special tools and past testimony. If you remember, one expert in some eastern state sent several people to jail over the years before being found to be a fraud, using outdated info and faulty equipment. Every case he ever testified in was overturned. A man that wrote the textbooks use around the world for over 30 years on accident reconstruction was found to be using faulty formulas and his name is now laughed at and his books replaced with better info written by others. It took a first year civil engineering student to find where the man went wrong but 30 yrs for someone to decide to check the formulas. For each expert you find for the 9mm, I can find three pricey studies to show otherwise. Also, with any expert, you have to consider their motivation. One man went around praising the effectiveness of a certain gun brand and got it selling well until the public learned the man owned a sizable amount of stock in that company. The work of one man can be severely flawed and this also includes my work. When using opinions, I try to use those of University research, publically funded and such.

You are correct in saying hits count. But how and where the target is hit counts as well. As I expained in court once, between being hit by a baseball or by a bat is quite a bit different but it depends on how you are hit, the size of the object being hit and the velocity of the hit. Do I want to be hit by a 9mm or a .45? Not in this life but given my chances of survival I would chose the 9mm. Again though, this is my opinion and others will have different opinions.

 

[Quigar57]

The PSP (Pa State Police) recently switched from Beretta 92s in 40s&w to Glock 37s in 45 G.A.P. I know quite a few troopers and while they are required to carry the 37 as their primary weapon many of them trust and prefer the 9mm round as their back up. A couple of them even carry .380s.

Many of the trooper that I know were not very happy with having to give up their Berettas for the Glock but the Berettas were simply getting old and worn. On a personal note I quite enjoyed the switch I as was able to get my hands on one of the Berettas with 4 mags for $265. Many of them looked like they had been dragged behind the cruisers, I don't think the one I got was ever issued. It is very cool and unmistakable with the PSP logo etched on the frame.

 

[novalty]

The PSP (Pa State Police) recently switched from Beretta 92s in 40s&w to Glock 37s in 45 G.A.P. I know quite a few troopers and while they are required to carry the 37 as their primary weapon many of them trust and prefer the 9mm round as their back up.

Why would they switch to a round that is almost dead itself? I can barely find 45 GAP ammo locally, and it isn't due to shortage.

 

[oldman45]

Why would they switch to a round that is almost dead itself? I can barely find 45 GAP ammo locally, and it isn't due to shortage.

Finding ammo in this area is not too difficult most of the time. I bought some .40, .45colt & acp and .357 ammo over the last two weeks. Of course I shot almost as much as I bought.

Finding cheap ammo is difficult. Shop your local gun store, sporting goods or such and stay out of WalMart, Target and Big K stores. I personally think they order very little ammo by their central offices and almost none of their profit comes from ammo sales.

When I want ammo at cheap prices, I buy on line from one of the suppliers.

 

[novalty]

Finding ammo in this area is not too difficult most of the time. I bought some .40, .45colt & acp and .357 ammo over the last two weeks. Of course I shot almost as much as I bought.

Finding cheap ammo is difficult. Shop your local gun store, sporting goods or such and stay out of WalMart, Target and Big K stores. I personally think they order very little ammo by their central offices and almost none of their profit comes from ammo sales.

When I want ammo at cheap prices, I buy on line from one of the suppliers.

My comment in regards to 45GAP, wasn't as a concern to shortage availability, but rather popularity availability. Even at local gun shops 45GAP is pretty scarce, guessing there isn't enough demand for most shops to want to carry it. I don't question it's stopping power, but it seems like an answer in need of a question.