J-Frame Carry Round....38-special or 9mm and Why?

[Engine49guy]

Alot of good info posted above,
Bottom line for me is I dont like loading unloading moon clips and the money you would save in ammo would be eaten up in the up charge of a 9mm revolver vs same gun in 38 special.

I would add that I do not shoot my J snubs at the range very often, usually only when I get a box of new CCW ammo to test fire it as it isnt as accurate or pleasant to shoot at the range as my 4" Combat Masterpiece.

The ballistic advantage of 9mm over .38 +P exists but is slight and if that is your ultimate concern the .357 Magnum is much more powerful than 9mm +P+ ......On a side note shooting full house .357 Mag in a J frame is not pleasant even in a SS 3" J frame with FG combat stocks ...
And as for as shooting .357 magnum in a 2" Scandium Airweight snub with Magna stocks... uhhh ......No.... Thank You.....No Thanks .

 

[Stopsign32v]

I realize using Moon clips means no "partial reloads" but when using a .38 Spl J-frame, each "shooting string" really should be all about pulling the trigger until the gun stops spitting bullets! This means you yank that trigger five times at the FACE of the attacker. IF you have multiples, THEN you make the mental calculation to apportion bullets, but if you have just ONE....pump that trigger five times!

Nobody with any sense carries a J-frame 5-shot with the notion that they will hold off a small regiment of terrorists. ANYONE leaving home expecting terrorists, should go ahead and "strap up" to a Glock 20 10mm with 16 full-power Underwood loads on tap and at least five spare mags of 15 each!

Anyone expecting terrorists should be carrying REAL 10mm as their bottom line buy-in!

I'm not really a 10mm fan, but all of this is pretty spot on. In real life I can NEVER think of a time someone should ever be faced with a situation to where partial reloads would be a good idea.

 

[Dave Lively]

Ballisticsbytheinch.com says a 124g 9mm GDHP out of a 2" barrel is 1074 fps and a 135g GDHP is 756 fps (although it is advertised a little faster). Energy is an additional factor to consider.

Is that a 2 inch revolver barrel or 2 inch semi-auto barrel? And they are different. The cylinder is not counted on a revolver so if you measure from the base of the bullet to the muzzle a 2 inch revolver has a longer barrel than my Kahr PM9 with a 3 inch barrel.

 

[cleans up]

Is that a 2 inch revolver barrel or 2 inch semi-auto barrel? And they are different. The cylinder is not counted on a revolver so if you measure from the base of the bullet to the muzzle a 2 inch revolver has a longer barrel than my Kahr PM9 with a 3 inch barrel.

Indeed the measurements for wheel guns vs semi are different, but posted values on bbti are for actual length. By some estimation you might take into account the difference. In this case however 9 vs 38 can be directly compare as the original question is 38 vs 9 in a j frame, so both suffer from cylinder gap and take advantage of cylinder length. Perhaps you may argue that 9 has an advantage being the shorter cartridge....but I can't see well enough to split hairs that finely.

Either way there is an advantage to 9 by the numbers, as there is to 357. More meaningful though is questioning if the numbers matter, and many feel they are "close enough for gov work". I'll still take the 9

 

[T2C]

As I have previously posted in other threads, I have been carrying & shooting a 9mm LCR for about 16.5 months. During that time I have shot mine many times without Moonclips and have satisfied my question of reliability. I carry it loaded with a Moonclip in a Mika Pocket Holster, a Speed Strip for a 327 with 6 rounds in the watch pocket above the gun & if wearing a cover garment a Spare Moonclip in the strong side pocket. Current carry load is the 147 Grain HST, have been testing with the 147 Gold Dot also. My Son has also pocket carried an 9mm LCR for the past 15 months. Total round count for both is near if not over 1k. Both have the Hogue G10 Grip and XS Standard Dot Night Sights.

Have you chronographed 9mm defensive loads with your LCR ?

 

[vanman1]

rw, you reminded me of an unanswered question I have concerning energy loss from ignition to flight. I understand it's not a big number and would vary from one pistol to another, even between same models. In a revolver fps are lost due to barrel-cylinder gap. How much energy is used to cycle the semi auto? Another nano number affected by the many variables concerning each pistol. Just curious. Thanks
Merry Christmas to all

 

[wolverine]

rw, you reminded me of an unanswered question I have concerning energy loss from ignition to flight. I understand it's not a big number and would vary from one pistol to another, even between same models. In a revolver fps are lost due to barrel-cylinder gap. How much energy is used to cycle the semi auto? Another nano number affected by the many variables concerning each pistol. Just curious.

Afternoon vanman1

Quite a bit of energy is used to cycle a semi-auto but if the gun is designed correctly & the lock-up delay is designed correctly that energy is used after the bullet leaves the barrel.

If the barrel/slide starts moving before bullet exit that really degrades accuracy.

 

[Moonman]

Try a HARDCAST 148 gr. FULL WADCUTTER.

 

[gsn]

Engine, if you can do so try a lcr in 9 I am confident that this will be enough to convince you, it really is an amazing gun and the cost of 9mm compared to .38 is huge.
The 9 out of a snub has a significant advantage compared to a .38 (which was originally a black powder round) BUT either will dispatch someone intent on doing you harm very quickly, so buy what you shoot best so long as it is a wheel gun. Heck even the lowly .22 will get the job done and the .22 wmr will really get the job done.

 

[Targets Guy]

With a J frame I'll go with a +P. Sometimes when I carry my 60-15 I'll load up the the .357.

 

[vipermd]

Like poster #2 posted Underwood ammo is super hot. I've shot most of the +P 38spl ammo out there in my LCR and underwood ammo was the hottest. Also it doesn't seem to have more of a kick then your regular +p stuff. Yes it is more expensive but it not like going to the rande shooting boxes of it.

What do you mean by "Hot"?? Higher velocity? If it has a higher velocity it then has higher recoil. You may not notice a significant change, but it still does have more recoil, simple physics. You can use any formula that you like to calculate free recoil all will show you that the recoil is greater. If you shoot a 125 grain out of your gun @ 800 fps, then you shoot a 125gr @ 950 fps the recoil is greater. Be Safe,

 

[HorizontalMike]

I choose .38/.357 caliber IMO

I carry 38+P in my 642J-Frame. Practice with standard load 38s. Why pick this caliber?... because I also own a 686 and 627PC as well. That way I don't have to be too particular with ammo, however it is a little bothersome to have 5-shot and 6-shot HKS speed-loaders, as well as 8-shot moon clips... Each loader for a different weapon...

 

[T2C]

I found my question answered here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...sults-38spl-9mm-38-super-9x23-winchester.html During his testing a 9mm 115g +P cartridge chronographs at 1098 fps. Muzzle velocity in his converted J Frame was 899 fps with the same cartridge.

I tested Speer 135g GDHP in my J Frame and it chronographs at 872 fps at the muzzle. It would appear there would be no advantage to having my J Frame converted to 9mm, but buying a dedicated compact revolver chambered in 9mm would give me a velocity advantage. I find it easier to carry speed strips than moon clips or speed loaders for my 5 shot revolver, so in my case I would have to give the .38 Special the nod.

I would not shoot +P+ 9mm out of a J Frame. I believe Tom Kilhoffer advises against it if you have him convert your J Frame to 9mm. If you could carry a +P+ load in your J Frame, I would not know how it performs in the field. I have seen a few people shot with 115g +P+ fired out of a 4" semi-automatic and the results were disappointing. Calculated muzzle energy numbers were impressive, but performance in the field was not.

I believe I will stick with my BG38 and Speer 135g GDHP if I want to carry a small revolver and carry my Sig P938 if I decide I want to carry 9mm.

 

[caleb4387]

158 grain all lead hollowpoint 38 is bout as good as any 9mm round

 

[T2C]

158 grain all lead hollowpoint 38 is bout as good as any 9mm round

If you are talking about the old FBI load, I carried the all lead +P 158g HP in a J Frame for years. I put several injured deer down with it. Then I had an opportunity to shoot the load into ballistic gelatin with my Model 60 and it did not expand. Penetration was good, but no expansion. I've been told the cartridge performs well when fired through a revolver with a 4" or longer barrel.

On the same day, I shot Speer 135g +P GDHP into gelatin with excellent expansion and 13" of penetration. Recoil was also a little less than with the FBI load. I have been carrying the Speer load ever since.

 

[caleb4387]

If you are talking about the old FBI load, I carried the all lead +P 158g HP in a J Frame for years. I put several injured deer down with it. Then I had an opportunity to shoot the load into ballistic gelatin with my Model 60 and it did not expand. Penetration was good, but no expansion. I've been told the cartridge performs well when fired through a revolver with a 4" or longer barrel.

On the same day, I shot Speer 135g +P GDHP into gelatin with excellent expansion and 13" of penetration. Recoil was also a little less than with the FBI load. I have been carrying the Speer load ever since.

I'd go with the Underwood version but speer is great load also

 

[Mistered]

I read a response to a similar question on another forum and the poster said the 9mm round was designed for a semi/full auto application and other than cost savings for practice the revolver is best suited for the round it was intended for.

 

[DaStray]

I have a J frame in 38/357 and as all have mentioned, the recoil in 357 is simply brutal. It`s like getting slapped in the hand with a Louisville Slugger! Switched to 38+P and recoil, while still somewhat snappy, is manageable, even for her. Ammo availability for both should be good so that doesn`t really factor in the equation.
Thus, for what it`s worth, the vote from the deep south is the 38+P.

 

[gsn]

It is what I do not observe/experience from the 9mm snub that convinces me this round is ideal for the short barreled revolver.

The only things one realizes with a .38 and .357 from a snub compared to a 9mm snub is truly spectacular muzzle blast and flame, which is positive indication of wasted energy and alot of wasted energy.

If one subscribes to the notion that any advantage in self protection is significant then one must subscribe to the -fact- that the 9mm is superior.

I am not suggesting that a .357 will NOT penetrate better than either a hot .38 or 9mm but it does so with punishing recoil-blast and flame each of which more than offsets the extra absolutely uncontrollable power.

The 9mm cartridge truly is not only made for the snub it is tailor made for the snub revolver-its, well; obvious.

 

[gsn]

Please remember that my comments are made regarding which gun and caliber is superior for the 'average' civilian for concealed carry / personal protection.

Come to think of it, the 9mm just may be the best choice for any civilian regardless of skill level but I do support the right of anyone to carry the handgun of their choice.

 

[ppsw]

One should checkout "gunblast" chronograph results and "mousegun addict" chronograph results as well as their comments on 9mm lcr...one will begin to question what they believe about the subject....modern powders have changed the rules for snubbies......

 

[mrchuck]

As I leave the house today, I have my Model 60 .357 in it's inside waist band soft holster. My "t" shirt covers it completely. I wear shorts.
Just and un-assuming old fart going shopping at Sam's Club.
The first round is a .357 mag, followed by four 38 Special hollow points.
In my shorts left pocket is a 5 round strip loader.
I am comfortable with my decision.
The adrenaline load one gets during an unexpected event like a cashier holdup or a parking lot car hijack does cause one's own reactions to be limited if he or she has not worked in the Law Enforcement duties.
It is hard to practice this unless one has a shooting range close by that has this type of course available.
This is where going to a shooting range as often as you can and firing your daily carry arm.
So, if you can,stop at a range after work and fire off some rounds.
Familiarity counts!

 

[eb07]

A 38 j frame with 135gr Speer gold dot short barrel is a perfectly adequate carry gun with real life and gel ballistic data to back it up.

No need to go to 9mm imho.

 

[rockquarry]

This needn't be thought out and analyzed to the point of unhealthy obsession. Pick a chambering, 9mm, .38 Special, or what have you. Try several non-full metal jacket defense type ammos, standard pressure or +P if you wish, in a bullet weight that will shoot to point of aim or very close to it at 25 yards.

The ammo that shoots where it should and provides the tightest group offhand at 25 yards is the right pick. Its important to remember that before all the sophisticated ammo arrived on the scene, the cops for decades used the lowly .38 Special lead round nose standard pressure cartridge to end the careers of many criminals. Better to hit with a boring load than miss with the latest exotic round that's the rage with the Internet goobers.

Consider recovery time from recoil as well as muzzle flash and blast. These factors can prevent an unskilled shooter from hitting what he aims at, and make it difficult even for a semi-skilled shooter to do well.

Learn to shoot and practice a lot, particularly if you're shooting a snubnose gun. You can practice closer than 25 yards, but that tends to hide your faults and makes you look better than you are. I realize the deadly force amateur theorists claim you will be indicted automatically if you defend yourself from such an incredibly long distance. If you learn to shoot well at 25 yards, shooting at closer distances becomes a very easy task and need be done only to verify point of impact. A poor shooter with an inaccurate gun and sorry ammunition can shoot a good group at five or ten yards.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Handloads equal out the two as far as power. I use 138 grain wadcutters at 900fps out of a two inch barrel. That is 9mm performance, since almost all of the bullet is in the case it uses less powder than a longer OAL, which translates into less muzzle blast. Initial kick is strong, but rubber grips soak it up. If you want to use lighter HP bullets the case can be trimmed to 19mm. I trim cases to 23mm to get a light load 105 grain at 800fps with minimal recoil, and almost no muzzle blast.

A few decades ago IIRC correctly federal made a rimmed 9mm, but it was dropped because some numpties used it in 38 S&W revolvers.

One of the reasons semi autos work so well is they throw slightly lighter bullets very fast with less powder. That comes out to less muzzle flash, which increases muzzle flip. So instead of getting the muzzle rise of a revolver it is more of a solid kick to the arm.

A 9mm will have more energy than a 38, but less recoil than a 357. IMO it is more controllable. I do not have a 9mm revolver, but do have a 625, and a CA .40 Pitbull. The pitbull is manageable with standard loads. Much more than a 357, and from the figures I have seen outperforms the 357 in a short barrel.

If Smith, or Ruger decides to make a 10mm revolver I will be jumping on it fast.

 

[dampoo]

.38 sp, it was good enough for Joe Friday it is good enough for me.


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[mj2008]

Loading up a .38 with Gold Dots is definetly going out well armed.

 

[blues7]

My J frame carry round is Winchester Ranger (Bonded) RA38B - 130gr +P JHP

 

[digiroc]

547 in 9mm ~ no moon clips needed ...

Not a J frame but still small enough for concealed carry. The K frame is heavy but that helps with accurate sustained fire.

I like that the 9mm revolver uses the same round as my semi-autos and power out of the 3" barrel is adequate for self defense.

I also have a 340 Pro Series that I carry with 38 +p's and speed strips with .357's. I've tried moon clips in the 340 but don't like them. To bulky in the pocket and prone to bending.

For revolvers, even though I carry at least one speed strip, I greatly prefer a NY reload, going to a back-up gun is far faster than fumbling with speed strips or moon clips.

digiroc

 

[elm_creek_smith]

Handloads equal out the two as far as power. I use 138 grain wadcutters at 900fps out of a two inch barrel. That is 9mm performance, since almost all of the bullet is in the case it uses less powder than a longer OAL, which translates into less muzzle blast. Initial kick is strong, but rubber grips soak it up. If you want to use lighter HP bullets the case can be trimmed to 19mm. I trim cases to 23mm to get a light load 105 grain at 800fps with minimal recoil, and almost no muzzle blast.

A few decades ago IIRC correctly federal made a rimmed 9mm, but it was dropped because some numpties used it in 38 S&W revolvers.

One of the reasons semi autos work so well is they throw slightly lighter bullets very fast with less powder. That comes out to less muzzle flash, which increases muzzle flip. So instead of getting the muzzle rise of a revolver it is more of a solid kick to the arm.

A 9mm will have more energy than a 38, but less recoil than a 357. IMO it is more controllable. I do not have a 9mm revolver, but do have a 625, and a CA .40 Pitbull. The pitbull is manageable with standard loads. Much more than a 357, and from the figures I have seen outperforms the 357 in a short barrel.

If Smith, or Ruger decides to make a 10mm revolver I will be jumping on it fast.

Smith & Wesson Model 610 was chambered for the 10mm.

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