J-Frames and 25yard qualifications

To the Op, how much firearms experience do you have? Strongly recommend taking a few NRA courses before deciding anything regarding a carry pistole or revolver. Was a NRA instructor beginning in 1974 and have seen "just about everything". There is Nothing wrong about Learning correct and SAFE handling of whatever pistol or revolver you decide to carry. Usually you won't just end up with 1 piece. "Collecting" pistols and revolvers can be looked at in many ways, hoarder, collector or just buy because you like them. Learn to shoot all of them.
IMHO go to a range and try several different pieces. Most instructors have a range that they use, don't be " afraid" to ask. Wonderful hobby, enjoy it safely.
 
Dutch87 said:
So here's the thing, I actually DO have a sig 365. I got one out of curiosity a year ago - VERY nice gun. Great trigger, 10rds in a package that small is awesome.
One day down the line when I have more experience carrying and concealing a pistol, I could absolutely see that gun going on the carry permit (rumor has it we're limited to 3 spots)

Size wise, it fits in the pocket. Weight wise loaded, with a mag empty, it's fine. With a loaded mag in the gun, she flops a little bit. My pockets are large enough.
A little slimmer would probably be best, which is why I plan on using a pistol purchase permit on a Glock 42. Similar footprint, lighter and a smidge thinner. I would be shocked if I couldn't shoot it well at 25.

I also believe that despite the listed thicknesses of these guns, that "J frames carry smaller than their measurements suggest. The cylinder is one measurement, the rest of the gun is small."
Click to expand...

I would suggest practicing with the P365 and adding on a J frame later. Eleven rounds of 9 mm Critical Defense sounds pretty good. And please use a pocket holster if you don't already, the gun should not move in there at all. :)
 
When I got my 640 I was afraid I'd miss not having single action, but the trigger is so good I don't need it. It's not like the DA on other revolvers, it seems to be an optimum compromise between DA and SA without giving much up.

Soft lead 158 gr is good in snubbies. Hollow points likely wouldn't expand anyway due to insufficient velocity from a 2" barrel.
 
malph said:
If it all possible go and shoot as many of the guns you are considering as possible. Maybe there is a range than rents guns in your area???

I mention this because the guns you think you like based on the specs may not be the guns you like once you shoot them.

If this is your first J-frame, a steel-framed gun has some merit. You are going to have to practice to be proficient.

A steel-framed gun is going to make those practice session at lot more tolerable.

If you enjoy your practice sessions, you are much more likely to do them.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more, and that's why I'm thinking the Model 36 Classic is worth looking at and thinking about.

A 36 with a steel frame launching wadcutters is probably downright pleasant by J-frame standards

Part of me really wants to get the 360PD, get a grip that covers the backstrap, and just fire wadcutters out of that and call it good.
(Great front sight for one, so light it's very easy to carry)
But knowing the 36 (and the other guns on the list) are better shooting guns makes me wonder too.
 
FLJoe said:
One more thing I like about any revolver- you can do pretty accurate feeling dry fire practice at home. With an autoloader you're limited to one "click" but with the revolver you can work on your trigger press all day for free if you want. Having been shooting semiautomatic triggers all my life, I had to do a lot of practice to learn to not short stroke the revolver on rapid fire exercises. I trained my muscle memory dry firing, which was good for me and the gun. I do some dry fire practice every day, just to keep my trigger habits in good shape.
Click to expand...

Same, it really helped make my first time shooting my 586 a very rewarding experience.

Wow is 357 pleasant out of a 586 with a 4in barrel! Not bad at all.
Shooting standard 38 special in there is a cakewalk.
I'm thinking that wadcutters, the first time I fire those in that gun I might think there's a squib stuck in the barrel :p
 
Pocket carry is almost all I do anymore and it is a great option to me. I live in "free America" and could legally carry open carry, or a full size gun concealed but the convenience of pocket carry ( no garment restrictions or worries about flashing the gun if your shirt blows open, or when bending over to pick up things, or scraping the gun when on the ground crawling under a car for example) and have always carried a hammer gun. Never a snag.
The key here is a proper draw stroke repetitively practiced.
My hand grips the gun and my thumb goes over the hammer and stays there until the gun clears the pocket.
What is nice about pocket carry is if things start to get sketchy ( and you for whatever reason can't exercise option one which is leave the area and avoid confrontation) you can put your hand in your pocket, have your grip established and just look like some dude with his hands in his pocket- doesn't telegraph your intent like putting hands on a belt holstered gun.
The all steel guns are a tad heavy for the pocket, but all my J frames have been steel and I don't find the weight problematic.
While lots of people will talk about whizz bang modern ammo in snubbies the reality is:
Specific to snubs
If the bullet expands it won't penetrate
If it penetrates it won't expand.
Getting both penetration and expansion out of a bullet in short barrels is near impossible.
I have personally witness gel tests at a revolver seminar focused on snub revolvers and the consensus of the instructors )who probably have a couple hundred years combined experience carrying snubs and have even survived gun fights using them)
Was the best option for the 2" snub was full profile wadcutters.
Because:
Light recoil enhances accuracy ( also when a gun is comfortable to shoot you will practice with it more and therefore shoot better also
Sharp bullets cuts tissues as it penetrates while other bullet profiles push it out of the way to snap back without damage
Fairly easy to find and affordable if you don't reload
In most guns shoot to point of aim or very close

Many of the newer light fast hollow points that might satisfy penetration and expansion requirements often shoot ( in my experience) as much as 6 inches high of point of aim at 10 yards
 
Greyman50 said:
To the Op, how much firearms experience do you have? Strongly recommend taking a few NRA courses before deciding anything regarding a carry pistole or revolver. Was a NRA instructor beginning in 1974 and have seen "just about everything". There is Nothing wrong about Learning correct and SAFE handling of whatever pistol or revolver you decide to carry. Usually you won't just end up with 1 piece. "Collecting" pistols and revolvers can be looked at in many ways, hoarder, collector or just buy because you like them. Learn to shoot all of them.
IMHO go to a range and try several different pieces. Most instructors have a range that they use, don't be " afraid" to ask. Wonderful hobby, enjoy it safely.
Click to expand...

You are doing God's work!
I cannnnnot imagine what you've seen in your time, my goodness.

Public ranges, are always a trip.
My favorite range trip I can remember -
Poor guy was a new gun owner, his first gun was a glock 27, and I think he'd settled on some spicy .40 rounds to christen the new gun. Poor guy. LOL

That same trip, an older gentlemen with what I think was a K-frame Smith with some giant iron sights on it rolled in, sent the target allll the way to the end of the range, and put on a masterclass.

It's like that moment in the gym where someone's lifting something so heavy we all turn around and look.


So I'm about 12 years into shooting handguns - and I'd say about ~5,000-6,000 rounds downrange. Certainly no expert, I dont' get to shoot as much as I wish I did (work schedule) but.
I'd say 80% of those rounds were .45 hardball through a 1911.

Where I'm new:
- carry in general
- shooting a J-frame sized gun
- shooting a J-frame sized gun out to 25

I'll be putting some rounds down the pipe before even trying to qualify, and certainly before carrying.

What I have to say after at least dry-firing some DAO centennials?
VERY surprised how much nicer the triggers were vs the stories about them.

I know people say the J-frames are obsolete but. Man I think there's something to these guns.
 
How big is the 25yd target and how long do you have to shoot it/ them ?
Interested Canadian asking :-)
What would a qualification test consist of ?
On my way to the range right now , I'd like to give it a try
 
kamloops67 said:
How big is the 25yd target and how long do you have to shoot it/ them ?
Interested Canadian asking :-)
What would a qualification test consist of ?
On my way to the range right now , I'd like to give it a try
Click to expand...

For practice, I've found a black two-inch square with a one-inch white square in the center works very well at 25 yards. Qualification targets are much larger and will be easier to shoot if you do your practice work with a small target center.

I've found with all handgun shooting using open sights, many commercial targets are lacking and usually too large. Shoot the smallest target that you can clearly see that doesn't cause eyestrain and your groups will be smaller and your shooting generally improved once you get used to it. It's a way of forcing discipline and improvement on your shooting skills. At least, it's worked well for me.
 
kamloops67 said:
How big is the 25yd target and how long do you have to shoot it/ them ?
Interested Canadian asking :-)
What would a qualification test consist of ?
On my way to the range right now , I'd like to give it a try
Click to expand...

I see nobody answered your question.

I'll try to help. Here's some info from earlier in the thread.

"This is not a beginner course! You will be required to demonstrate safety, familiarity, and accuracy. It is pass or fail.
– No holster needed
– All shooting from the ready position
– 50 rounds per firearm
– FBI Q target

– 24 rounds at 7 yards
– 14 rounds at 10 yards
– 6 rounds at 15 yards
– 6 rounds at 25 yards
For a total of 50 rounds. Must hit at least 40 rounds out of 50 (80%)"

I don't think it is timed fire.


FBI Training & Qualification Shooting Paper Target
Size 20" x 32"
2-tone gray
FBI-Q silhouette shooting target

Looks like the actual body width of silhouette inside is 12 inches.

Height 26 inches.

It appears that the rule is that any hit on the body is a hit.

Off the body is a miss.

That's the best I can understand it.

:)
 
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Here's a link to the FBI-Q silhouette shooting target. I had to know.

[ame]https://www.amazon.com/Official-Shooting-Target-Silhouette-Targets/dp/B0BBDFM2SZ[/ame]
 
Let me start a controversy.

There is simply no reason a fairly competent shooter cannot hold 4 of 5 shots of 38 Special ammo on a B27 target at 100 yards, single action, with a Smith J-frame, Colt Detective Special, Ruger SP 101 (or other quality 2" barreled revolver) other than a lack of fundamental marksmanship training and sufficient practice.

I also get tired of hearing horse owners whine about needing a different saddle, different bridle, different bit, corrective shoes, etc., when the real problem is they need to learn how to ride, practice/practice/practice, and properly feed their horse.
 
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A J frame is mechanically as accurate as any other quality revolver, and more capable than most of us. It is, however, far less ergonomic than say a K38 (M14) or any other target sight equipped K,L, or N frame.

The sight radius is very short. Fixed sights are harder to see. The trigger weight is generally greater than that of a K frame because the internals are different and the geometry is less friendly. That greater trigger resistance is then transferred to a lighter gun, the worst of both worlds.

These are not insurmountable, but real. With my aging eyes, any firearm without a red dot is a lot harder to shoot well (under pressure, to a standard) than a firearm with a red dot. My EDC is a Glock 33, and when I first shot it for a qualification, I swapped to XS big dot sights ASAP. I have a G42 for specific reasons - same sight change right away.

Ammo. Wadcutters are a lot better than most folks perceive - with their shape they will do pretty well if you do your part. Carry standard velocity SWC for reloads; they will go into the chambers more easily. Is there a significant likelihood of a civilian self-defense shooting at more than 7-10 yards? Nope. Does that mean zero? Nope. If I were a cynic, I would suspect that either NJ adopted their LE standard due to laziness, or more likely, that they wanted to limit the number of people who can pass. It is what it is.

I have one J frame and have not carried it in ... several years, likely most of ten. It is, for me, a niche platform and not useful for general carry. YMMV.
 
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rockquarry said:
I don't follow; how is it useless?
Click to expand...

I was being a bit flippant but except for competition shooting it's not very useful - anyone can do it with practice but, except for bragging, why?

Large frame pistols and revolvers are easily shot on a distant target and it's nice to say that you did it but it's not any kind of a useful gun fighting skill. That's really what I meant. YMMV
 
Doug M. said:
A J frame is mechanically as accurate as any other quality revolver, and more capable than most of us. It is, however, far less ergonomic than say a K38 (M14) or any other target sight equipped K,L, or N frame.

The sight radius is very short. Fixed sights are harder to see. The trigger weight is generally greater than that of a K frame because the internals are different and the geometry is less friendly. That greater trigger resistance is then transferred to a lighter gun, the worst of both worlds.

These are not insurmountable, but real. With my aging eyes, any firearm without a red dot is a lot harder to shoot well (under pressure, to a standard) than a firearm with a red dot. My EDC is a Glock 33, and when I first shot it for a qualification, I swapped to XS big dot sights ASAP. I have a G42 for specific reasons - same sight change right away.

Ammo. Wadcutters are a lot better than most folks perceive - with their shape they will do pretty well if you do your part. Carry standard velocity SWC for reloads; they will go into the chambers more easily. Is there a significant likelihood of a civilian self-defense shooting at more than 7-10 yards? Nope. Does that mean zero? Nope. If I were a cynic, I would suspect that either NJ adopted their LE standard due to laziness, or more likely, that they wanted to limit the number of people who can pass. It is what it is.

I have one J frame and have not carried it in ... several years, likely most of ten. It is, for me, a niche platform and not useful for general carry. YMMV.
Click to expand...

I'm not much for gunfighting theory and don't fixate on self-defense situations, but I enjoy shooting. The 7-10 yard numbers are often quoted and they may be correct; I've never given it much thought. However, learning to shoot well at distance will only help to improve overall shooting skill, whether the target is at 25 yards or 5.
 
ISCS Yoda said:
I was being a bit flippant but except for competition shooting it's not very useful - anyone can do it with practice but, except for bragging, why?

Large frame pistols and revolvers are easily shot on a distant target and it's nice to say that you did it but it's not any kind of a useful gun fighting skill. That's really what I meant. YMMV
Click to expand...

I can't see a need to brag. However, any shooting skill improvement is just that, an improvement. Improvement helps at all distances and in all shooting disciplines, self-defense, competition, etc.
 
biku324 said:
I qualified from 1982 to 1997 with my M49 and standard 158 grain LSWCs or, later, factory 158 grain +P LSWCHPs. Twenty-five yards was not a big problem for a reasonably competent shooter.
Click to expand...

Not for everyone but it is reasonably possible. We qualified on the FBI Q target with five shot revolvers firing 10 rounds from the 25 yard line. Single action was permitted. Good luck.
 
ISCS Yoda said:
I was being a bit flippant but except for competition shooting it's not very useful - anyone can do it with practice but, except for bragging, why?

Large frame pistols and revolvers are easily shot on a distant target and it's nice to say that you did it but it's not any kind of a useful gun fighting skill. That's really what I meant. YMMV
Click to expand...

That guy at the mall might disagree.

I regularly practice at 25 yards. If I can hit it at that range I can hit it closer. And yes, I can do it quickly.

I shoot every week at an indoor range. My target is almost always the only one at the 25. Some targets are as close as 6 feet from the shooter.

I'm convinced that most shooters won't shoot at longer ranges because they can barely hit the target at much shorter ranges. At least close up they can look at their 12 inch pattern and say to themselves - that woulda kilt 'em. Reeling back an unhit target from the 25 would hurt their feelings.

One guy asked why I shot way down there where "you can't see the holes". I told him I know where the holes are.

That said, thousands of people with zero marksmanship ability successfully shoot other people every year, sometimes with the gun held sideways!
 
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Der Verminator said:
I see nobody answered your question.

I'll try to help. Here's some info from earlier in the thread.

"This is not a beginner course! You will be required to demonstrate safety, familiarity, and accuracy. It is pass or fail.
– No holster needed
– All shooting from the ready position
– 50 rounds per firearm
– FBI Q target

– 24 rounds at 7 yards
– 14 rounds at 10 yards
– 6 rounds at 15 yards
– 6 rounds at 25 yards
For a total of 50 rounds. Must hit at least 40 rounds out of 50 (80%)"

I don't think it is timed fire.


FBI Training & Qualification Shooting Paper Target
Size 20" x 32"
2-tone gray
FBI-Q silhouette shooting target

Looks like the actual body width of silhouette inside is 12 inches.

Height 26 inches.

It appears that the rule is that any hit on the body is a hit.

Off the body is a miss.

That's the best I can understand it.

:)
Click to expand...

That's my understanding, yes!
 
Doug M. said:
A J frame is mechanically as accurate as any other quality revolver, and more capable than most of us. It is, however, far less ergonomic than say a K38 (M14) or any other target sight equipped K,L, or N frame.

The sight radius is very short. Fixed sights are harder to see. The trigger weight is generally greater than that of a K frame because the internals are different and the geometry is less friendly. That greater trigger resistance is then transferred to a lighter gun, the worst of both worlds.

These are not insurmountable, but real. With my aging eyes, any firearm without a red dot is a lot harder to shoot well (under pressure, to a standard) than a firearm with a red dot. My EDC is a Glock 33, and when I first shot it for a qualification, I swapped to XS big dot sights ASAP. I have a G42 for specific reasons - same sight change right away.

Ammo. Wadcutters are a lot better than most folks perceive - with their shape they will do pretty well if you do your part. Carry standard velocity SWC for reloads; they will go into the chambers more easily. Is there a significant likelihood of a civilian self-defense shooting at more than 7-10 yards? Nope. Does that mean zero? Nope. If I were a cynic, I would suspect that either NJ adopted their LE standard due to laziness, or more likely, that they wanted to limit the number of people who can pass. It is what it is.

I have one J frame and have not carried it in ... several years, likely most of ten. It is, for me, a niche platform and not useful for general carry. YMMV.
Click to expand...

My understanding is, what guns you can carry on your permit (in this state) vary by the judge who signed off on it.
In some places, 1 qualification = good to carry anything you own.

In others, you're only approved for what you can shoot/qualify with.
Current rumor is that for those ^ situations you appear to be limited to ~ 3 guns.

I'm of the mind that I'll probably choose a glock 42, a J-frame of some flavor, and a 1911 I own.


As you mention the XS big dot, I'm spoiled by the gold bead on my 1911, I'm a big big fan of a sight picture I can work with.
I'm actually mulling over the 360PD, and say the M&P340 (despite the fact that I'd prefer a hammer), due to the sight picture.

Being able to use .357 later on as I get more comfortable with J-frames is a theoretical bonus, but a good front sight out of the box is certainly nice!
 
rockquarry said:
I can't see a need to brag. However, any shooting skill improvement is just that, an improvement. Improvement helps at all distances and in all shooting disciplines, self-defense, competition, etc.
Click to expand...

I will say for me personally, I do normally send the target out on the range (when shooting with the 1911).
At longer ranges it pushes the shooter to really get those fundamentals right - there's more distance to make trigger control/sight alignment levels readily apparent

K Frame Keith said:
Not for everyone but it is reasonably possible. We qualified on the FBI Q target with five shot revolvers firing 10 rounds from the 25 yard line. Single action was permitted. Good luck.
Click to expand...

I'm super glad I started this topic and blown off the youtube comments sections! :cool:

While I kept reading (in threads on this board) that when viced down the J-frames are mechanically accurate, it's reassuring to hear that in the real world, non-Jerry Miculek/Bob-Munden shooters can make hits at that range.
 
sigp220.45 said:
That guy at the mall might disagree.

I regularly practice at 25 yards. If I can hit it at that range I can hit it closer. And yes, I can do it quickly.

I shoot every week at an indoor range. My target is almost always the only one at the 25. Some targets are as close as 6 feet from the shooter.

I'm convinced that most shooters won't shoot at longer ranges because they can barely hit the target at much shorter ranges. At least close up they can look at their 12 inch pattern and say to themselves - that woulda kilt 'em. Reeling back an unhit target from the 25 would hurt their feelings.

One guy asked why I shot way down there where "you can't see the holes". I told him I know where the holes are.

That said, thousands of people with zero marksmanship ability successfully shoot other people every year, sometimes with the gun held sideways!
Click to expand...

I think at the Indiana mall incident, the 22 year old who ended the shooting fired his first shots at 40 yards right?

Statistics might say that we're much more likely, WAY more likely to be stuck in a 7-10 yard scenario, if god forbid we ever have to draw.

But if you do have a 1 in 1 million situation, I would feel more comfortable with at least being familiar with the POA/POI of a carry piece at longer ranges - and if the SA trigger lets me get better hits at 25 in my hands, I think it's worth considering.
 
I'm very thankful for everyone who has chimed in on this thread, if I had to give a "ranking", of where the guns stand?

1) 637 Performance center.
- Factory trigger job
- In the caliber I intend to shoot it in
- Good weight
- DA/SA
- Con: the front sight

2) 638
- Shrouded hammer, DA/SA
Con: the front sight

3) M&P340
- Big dot front sight
- Steel cylinder
- Rated for 357, so a steady diet of 38 should be very easy on the gun
con: DAO, not sure how I personally feel about it

4) 360PD
- DA/SA
- "so light you'll forget you're carrying it. Guns you can carry in anything, don't get left at home"
- Very good front sight
Con: titanium cylinder durability
 
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