Jeju Air Has Some Splaing to do

[MaricopaKid]

Good observation about military vs non-military flying backgrounds. A few years ago, my boy retired after 20 years as a naval aviator, and is flying commercial now. Being a new hire, he's very junior among his fellow pilots. A couple months ago, he was flying right seat when they had a minor emergency. He and the captain, who never flew military and had fewer hours than my boy, ran the checklist, dealt with the problem and landed just fine. Once they shut down, the Captain remarked how scary that was.
My boy told him he had to be kidding; that was just another Tuesday morning in the Navy.

I have told this before. During one dozen year stretch in industrial management, I was flying commercial 2-4 times per week. I caught a last flight from Vegas, with a transfer at DFW for Hartsfield. The winds were awesome, and I was surprised that they let us land in Dallas.

As we approached, all of the protocols for emergency were initiated. We would have made a crab dizzy. Talk about feeling like a toy of the gods. You could feel the fear in the cabin as we finally bounced, lifted, and bounced again. I just knew we would land with the wheels facing the wrong way. When the plane braked with total power it became silent. Suddenly, the cabin broke out in applause, whoopin', and hollerin'.
As we were exiting the aircraft, when I approached the Captain, I extended my hand and asked "Flat top"? He smiled, raised his hand for a "high five" and said, "Big E", Baby"!

 

[Kinman]

Arm on the panel bracing for impact until...impact and the arm snaps at the elbow driving the forearm into the upper torso...no bueno.

I was in a collision a couple years ago when a guy ran a stop sign in front of me, I was going about 35mph. As I hit the brakes I also hit the center of the steering wheel where the horn is. What I forgot about was the air bag, I nearly punched myself out when I broadsided the other car and all my up to date protection devices went into action.

 

[Tinyman]

Went from Plattsburgh NY to Altus OK on a KC-135. Female pilot, Captain. On final we kind of 'slid sideways' into position (looked out the side port hole windows and saw the entire length of the runway) and just before touch down aimed down the runway. When we got off, I told the pilot "Nice landing" -- she smiled, pointed over to the co-pilot and said, "he did it". No joke, this 2nd Lt looked about 16 years old.

 

[LVSteve]

Went from Plattsburgh NY to Altus OK on a KC-135. Female pilot, Captain. On final we kind of 'slid sideways' into position (looked out the side port hole windows and saw the entire length of the runway) and just before touch down aimed down the runway. When we got off, I told the pilot "Nice landing" -- she smiled, pointed over to the co-pilot and said, "he did it". No joke, this 2nd Lt looked about 16 years old.

Former boss told me of a similar landing in a King Air where there was a strong wind from the front left quarter. At the exact moment the pilot was kicking it straight, the wind dropped and the plane "ceased flying with a bang". Strong undercarriage on that model, apparently.

 

[BillyMagg]

Queen Air

A little off subject but I was stationed at Adams Field 1987-1992 flying an ARMY U-8F, but I lived in Jacksonville, AR just outside LRAFB. I loved watching the C-130s do their assault approaches. Then Col. Jack Keane was one of my main passengers, as he commanded JRTC, Ft. Chaffee. He was billeted at LRAFB so I would hop over to LRAFB and take him to Ft. Smith. What a character. A true warrior who started off as a INF Lt. platoon leader in the jungles of Vietnam.

This is what happens when an inexperienced pilot is cleared inappropriately for solo flight. Check lists are written in the blood of the ones that go before us. This guy thought the check list was for fools. Notice the lack of survivable/living space in the cockpit. I just had to include a picture of my U-8F Excalibur.

My first thought was "Twin Bonanza" when I saw the picture, so did your bird have the IO-720s, now that was a big flat 8 cylinder, that made it an "Excaliber", lol. One of my Buddies flew the state of Illinois C-90 with a glass cockpit,, I always loved the twin bonanza,, now the original twin Bonanza may have had geared engines?? or is that my imagination??

Course the Queen Air eventuallly got PT-6's and later became the C-90..

Small world, so you're of course talking about General Jack Keane, he is a "class act" for sure, I never knew he was at Little Rock? Lots I didn't know, I was 14, LOL,, but I did kiss a little hillbilly chick name "Darlene", and I flew a Cessna 150 for the first time with one of my Dad's Sergeants,, so Little Rock was amazing for me, LOL.. I was kind of broken hearted when my Dad retired..

 

[BillyMagg]

The Captain

Is it possible to know who was flying the plane - left seat or right? Was this a monumental pilot screw up or was the totally mis-configured landing done with intention?

The Captain was flying the airplane, airline protocols have changed, and the right seat jockey doesn't get to fly certain legs of a trip as they used to.. once they declared a go around and a "bird strike", you can see that right engine belch fire when that bird goes through it?? the Captain has the airplane..

The Captain was ex military, and had lots of hours, that touchdown was very smooth, I'm going to do a little more research and get back to you guys,, but there are some mitigating factors, that make me believe my initial assessment of both powerplants being damaged by the bird strikes, may be correct.

 

[Onomea]

So whatta ya guys make of both black boxes shutting off a couple of minutes before the crash?

I don't know much at all about airplanes, but that sounds... suspicious... to me.

 

[LVSteve]

So whatta ya guys make of both black boxes shutting off a couple of minutes before the crash?

I don't know much at all about airplanes, but that sounds... suspicious... to me.

Depends how the kite is wired. Saw one of those air disaster shows where the investigators were puzzled that the captain (left seat) seemed unaware that the plane was stalling. Turned out his displays were wired to the motor that crapped out with no backup. Supposedly, changes were made to that model after the event, but you always wonder...

 

[Retired W4]

My first thought was "Twin Bonanza" when I saw the picture, so did your bird have the IO-720s, now that was a big flat 8 cylinder, that made it an "Excaliber", lol. One of my Buddies flew the state of Illinois C-90 with a glass cockpit,, I always loved the twin bonanza,, now the original twin Bonanza may have had geared engines?? or is that my imagination??

Course the Queen Air eventuallly got PT-6's and later became the C-90..

Small world, so you're of course talking about General Jack Keane, he is a "class act" for sure, I never knew he was at Little Rock? Lots I didn't know, I was 14, LOL,, but I did kiss a little hillbilly chick name "Darlene", and I flew a Cessna 150 for the first time with one of my Dad's Sergeants,, so Little Rock was amazing for me, LOL.. I was kind of broken hearted when my Dad retired..

The BE-65 (Queen Air) had super charged 560 engines and the Excaliber did have normally asperated IO-720's with fuel injection (no carbs). I have some great stories about Gen. Keane up to when he commanded Atlantic Command at Norfolk, VA. Those later.

On the Korean crash, cultural factors may have come into play as they have in the past. In some countries the captain is god and the CP better just sit down and shut up. 30 years ago we attempted to mitigate that problem with CRM, or Crew Resource Management, where all commercial and military pilots attended CRM classes on a recurring basis. Those interested can look that one up. The principals taught in those classes are extremely important in emergencies.

As for the FDR and CVR, I see NO way they could shut down. Those recorders are bullet proof. I don't know with certainly but I seriously doubt the crew could disable them.

Even though the NTSB and the A/C manufacturer aided in the investigation my confidence level is not very high regarding the eventual resulting final report.

 

[BillyMagg]

It is highly relevant!!!

So whatta ya guys make of both black boxes shutting off a couple of minutes before the crash?

I don't know much at all about airplanes, but that sounds... suspicious... to me.

NOT suspicious, but indicative of a catastrophic electrical failure, so my money says that both turbines were damaged in the initial birdstrikes, so one or both of those engines continued to make some power! Now it is possible that they shut down the port engine by mistake??? it has happened, more than once??

Now that approach was getting low, so it's also possible that they were having problems even before the called "birdstrike", but they were making some power, or that gear would not have retracted, and those flaps would not have come up, and that airplane would not have climbed away.. Their airspeed was down around 140knts, so that would have been perfect on the first approach, but their glide path looks kind of like a roller coaster??? before we jump on the Captain and F/0, we need to see whats on those black boxes prior to their ultimate failure, 4 minutes prior to their belly landing, which honestly was damn near flawless, a little yaw prior to settling into ground effect, (assymetric thrust)??? more than likely.

 

[AJ]

I doubt a bird strike could defeat the redundant systems for gear and flaps on that 737-800. Only speculation at this moment of course. Even if they lost both engines they still had an APU.

If the birds were sucked down the intakes and FODed the engines the hydraulics were more than likely gone. That is if both motors were shot, there should be a Flight Hydraulic system and a Combined Hydraulic system on each (two hydraulic pumps per engine). All that said there should also be a Pneumatic system to blow the landing gear down for emergencies.

However comma! If the bird went through the skin of the aircraft in the right place, it could have taken out both the hydraulic and pneumatic lines so that nothing would work. Have seen both scenarios happen. Spent 20 years working on twin engine attack jets. Lots o' stuff happened!!

 

[Retired W4]

If the birds were sucked down the intakes and FODed the engines the hydraulics were more than likely gone. That is if both motors were shot, there should be a Flight Hydraulic system and a Combined Hydraulic system on each (two hydraulic pumps per engine). All that said there should also be a Pneumatic system to blow the landing gear down for emergencies.

However comma! If the bird went through the skin of the aircraft in the right place, it could have taken out both the hydraulic and pneumatic lines so that nothing would work. Have seen both scenarios happen. Spent 20 years working on twin engine attack jets. Lots o' stuff happened!!

AJ, I don't know if you looked at the video at post #36 but there is a hydraulic schematic at about 15 minutes in. Maybe you can decipher it. One really interesting item he brought up is the TR on the #2 engine is deployed which REQUIRES hydraulics. Hmmm. That means they had some hydraulics.

 

[LVSteve]

NOT suspicious, but indicative of a catastrophic electrical failure, so my money says that both turbines were damaged in the initial birdstrikes, so one or both of those engines continued to make some power! Now it is possible that they shut down the port engine by mistake??? it has happened, more than once??

See here. Kegworth air disaster - Wikipedia

 

[AJ]

AJ, I don't know if you looked at the video at post #36 but there is a hydraulic schematic at about 15 minutes in. Maybe you can decipher it. One really interesting item he brought up is the TR on the #2 engine is deployed which REQUIRES hydraulics. Hmmm. That means they had some hydraulics.

Tom,

I am just a stupid ole' aircraft electrician and I was a Maintenance Control Chief for a long time. The hydraulics systems have a lot of electrical components and we worked with hydraulics quite a bit to troubleshoot problems. Looked at the schematic and the TR is fed by the Lt & Rt engines and the back up system. The No.1 (LT) engine controls the hydraulics to the MLG and NG. The No.2 (R) engine controls the flaps. Are Flight Spoilers another name for the slats? These are controlled by both engines. If both engines are not producing enough power to run the hydraulics properly, then the back up system may not be functioning fully. Therefore only one TR worked. Also if the motor came apart after the bird strike what damage did that do as the pieces/parts would act as shrapnel and destroy things like wire bundles or hyd/pneu lines? Just supposition on our parts as we don't know the aircraft and were not there. Wait until the NTSB gives out their findings.

 

[BillyMagg]

NO RAT on the 737-800

AJ, I don't know if you looked at the video at post #36 but there is a hydraulic schematic at about 15 minutes in. Maybe you can decipher it. One really interesting item he brought up is the TR on the #2 engine is deployed which REQUIRES hydraulics. Hmmm. That means they had some hydraulics.

There is no RAT on the 737-800, but there is a hydraulic reservoir. The very sudden stoppage on the FDR and the CVR is the starting point of 4 minutes of hell, as the Captain and the F/0 attempt to save this aircraft, and the 181 souls on board..

So AJ, you've put us on a good track to untangle this garden hose, but we can only unravel one coil at a time.

With the TR at least partially deployed on the right engine, we see they knew they had to slow the airplane down,, I mean, look at that approach, they are flying the airplane. But those are just the can's, if the airplane is not making power, there is no thrust reverser.

 

[AJ]

There is no RAT on the 737-800, but there is a hydraulic reservoir. The very sudden stoppage on the FDR and the CVR is the starting point of 4 minutes of hell, as the Captain and the F/0 attempt to save this aircraft, and the 181 souls on board..

So AJ, you've put us on a good track to untangle this garden hose, but we can only unravel one coil at a time.

With the TR at least partially deployed on the right engine, we see they knew they had to slow the airplane down,, I mean, look at that approach, they are flying the airplane. But those are just the can's, if the airplane is not making power, there is no thrust reverser.

The Back Up Hydraulic system on my aircraft was operated by the aircraft battery with no external power (read generators) required. It almost sounds like they had a complete electrical and hydraulic failure in the aircraft. They could still operate the rudder, horizontal stab and the flaperons with the stick, but it would be like driving a car with no power steering. If there were broken hyd/pneu lines then the fluid would be lost very fast under 3,000 PSI. The TR system may have only had enough juice to open one TR, but if the engines are not developing thrust it did not good. Have seen total hydraulic failures a couple of times. One was a bird strike (took out both the hydraulics and pneumatics). The other I do not remember why the hydraulics failed, but can find out. Both aircraft were landed and repaired. This is one (https://smith-wessonforum.com/142141579-post3651.html ) and the other was aboard the carrier and was caught in the barricade.