JUST TESTED THE "NEW" REMINGTON HTP FBI LOAD VS THE OLD ONE

[ironhead7544]

The older loads were chrongraphed at 700 fps with the standard pressure 158 gr RNL and 800 fps from the 158 gr SWCHP +P load. Both from a 4 inch barrel. You will find that a 50 fps difference between most guns with the same barrel length is normal.

I have seen some lots of the 158 gr SWCHPL +P load go up to 940 fps in a 4 inch. The factories dont always use the same powder so this is normal. Get a chronograph to test your ammo.

I saw a test done some years ago and shown in a loading manual. They used six identical guns with six inch barrels in 357 Magnum. There was up to 200 fps difference between the guns with the same factory ammo in various loads. There was no general rule between the revolvers. They were fast and slow with different loads.

 

[Waywatcher]

I'm ordering some of this ammo and will test it and post results. Bumping the thread so it's easier to find next week; plus maybe someone has some new experience in the meantime.

 

[BB57]

.../

/...As some here might already know, I am a huge Buffalo Bore fan and that is my daily carry load (158 grain HEAVY +P LSWCHP-GC - 1040 fps from a 2" bbl. and 1170 fps from a 6" barrel). Now, as some may know, Remington recently re-branded their "FBI load" and their long time designation of R38S12 is now known as High Terminal Performance or HTP.../

.../OLD R38S12 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 953
HIGH: 969
AVG: 964

NEW HTP 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 859
HIGH: 884
AVG: 872

Several comments on various issues that have popped up in the thread:

1. All the commercial ".38 Special FBI" loads, past and present are limited to the SAAMI .38 Special +P pressure spec adopted in 1974.

There are indeed +P loads that are marketed or viewed as being the FBI load, but the original 1972 FBI load exceeds the SAAMI maximum pressure spec for "+P" ammunition. Meaning the original FBI load would be what we'd call a "+P+" load running in the neighborhood of 23,000 psi to generate between 1014 fps and 1090 fps (depending on whose original data you read) in a 4" barrel.

Given that, I've never understood why people swore by the "old" Remington FBI load, given that it wasn't even close.

2. The OP compared the old Remington load with the new recognition load, but even the old Remington load in a 6" barrel is at least 50 fps short of the old load in a 4" barrel (1014 to 1090 fps versus 964 fps).

Obviously with a velocity of only 872 fps, the "new" Remington load falls even farther behind.

3. There are comments to the effect that reports of harder lead are anecdotal. As noted above, unless the bullet is soft lead, you'll get penetration but not expansion. I wouldn't worry about anecdotal evidence - he simple fact is that if you can't easily dent the bullet with a fingernail it's way too hard to reliably expand at the velocities in question.

4. Buffalo Bore's Heavy .38 Special "+P" ammo exceeds the old FBI load in terms of velocity. They indicate the following on their site:

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

You'll note all of the above revolvers are models designed for .357 magnum loads.

It's still soft lead, and they use a gas check to control leading.

If you're looking for something that is at least equal to the old 1972 law enforcement only FBI load, BB's Heavy .38 Special is the only game in town.

5. The .357 Magnum, when loaded with slow burning powders for longer barrels is not all that efficient in a 2" barrel. You'll get lots of muzzle flash, lots of muzzle blast and lots of unburnt powder in your face, but you won't get an awful lot of velocity, particularly with the lighter 125-130 grain bullets often used in 2" revolvers.

I've found however that with a powder like Unique I can get 1250 fps in a 2" barrel with a 125 grain XTP. That's about 150 fps over a .38 Special +P load and worth the effort with minimal increase in muzzle flash. It also recoils a lot less than a load with ice the weight of slow burning powder, give that the exit velocity of the propellant gas is about 3 times the velocity of the projectile, and it adds significantly to the recoil even at the same projectile velocity.

 

[chief38]

Over the past few years I have really gotten into testing and Chronographing various .38 Special self defense loads since that is what I carry in my Model 60-7. Many of the results have been posted on this and other Forums and would like to post some interesting findings from todays Chronograph tests.

As some here might already know, I am a huge Buffalo Bore fan and that is my daily carry load (158 grain HEAVY +P LSWCHP-GC - 1040 fps from a 2" bbl. and 1170 fps from a 6" barrel). Now, as some may know, Remington recently re-branded their "FBI load" and their long time designation of R38S12 is now known as High Terminal Performance or HTP. In a call to them about a year ago I was told that the new HTP load is identical to their older R38S12 and the only thing new was the packaging. Recently I purchased a few boxes of the new HTP ammo and while at the Range today Chronographing M1 Carbine and other loads I wanted to compare the old against the new Remington FBI load offerings as well.

Now just as a note, I almost always test .38 Special carry ammo from my 2" M60-7 but today I had a M27 with a 6" barrel since I was also testing some .357 offerings.

Firing 10 rounds each from the M27 here are the results of the old vs the new. Todays weather was 67º F, dry and very sunny.

OLD R38S12 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 953
HIGH: 969
AVG: 964

NEW HTP 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 859
HIGH: 884
AVG: 872

As the results show, Remington's new FBI load offering seems to have shed just under 100 feet per second when they re-branded it. I did only open and test one box so far but since they were fairly consistent I would expect that these results are reflecting what they are currently loading. I would really like to know if anyone else has done a comparison of the new & old and what their results were. Now remember, these results are from a 6" barrel and would expect a reduction of at least 100 or so F/S from a 2" barrel. That would result in around 770 fps out of a Chief's Special with their new HTP offering as compared to around 860 fps from their older one.

I am not saying the new bullet won't do what it is supposed to do, but I am saying that they seemed to have watered it down by more than 10%. I also realize that bullet performance is not solely judged by its velocity, but given the fact that the bullets in both the old and new are identical, I would think that bullet performance would certainly be affected by this velocity reduction. If anybody with a Chronograph has both new and old Remington FBI loads at their disposal, I would certainly like to know what their results might be. Please post if you are able.

Regards,
Chief38

Boy, this is an old thread - resurrected. Anyway, I'd just like to again bring attention to the M27 with which I tested these with was a 6" barrel. The results out of my 2" Chief's Special with the NEW Remington HTP's was about 750 - 760 ft/sec average.

 

[Waywatcher]

Here's my results from this morning:

Remington .38 Special +P 158 Lead Hollow Point HTP:
36-7 with 1-7/8" barrel, 10 shots, 789fps avg.
442-1 with 1-7/8" barrel, 10 shots, 777fps avg.

Extreme spreads and standard deviations were nominal.

The lead appears soft and easily deformed. Minor thumbnail pressure easily and visibly marks the bullet--the lead clearly pushed aside. I don't have a hardness tester, but I would guess these are quite soft.

My 36-7 is now loaded with them.

 

[NotObvious]

New stuff is slower...

I just tested this with denim (4 layers) and 4 jugs of water with schreded newspaper.

Old lot of Remington was 99FPS faster and mushroomed nicely from my Charter Arms 2" as well as my 6.5" ruger blackhawk.

New stuff... it did mushroom, but, not as much and did NOT make it through the 3rd jug from either revolver.

My handloads with Speer 158gr LSWCHP, Starline +P brass, and Ramshow Silhouette powder and Federal small pistol primers... only 35FPS faster than the old lot from Remington and mushrooms out of all 38/357 revolvers I own.

Weights on the new stuff are nearly .5 grains less than older lots.

 

[DocB]

Is this a box of the old FBI loads? They came from a woman whose husband was LE. Semi-wadcutter hollow point stuff. All the cartridges are well kept and like new. I'm thinking the box is from the late 1970's but not sure.

 

[chief38]

DocB:

I'd put money on the old box you posted being faster than current production ammo even from the same Company. A few years ago I sent back 6 boxes of the newer production Winchester "FBI Load" because they were producing velocities in the LOW 700 range and find that totally unacceptable! Winchester agreed, sent me a letter (mumbo-jumbo excuses) and a refund check. It would be interesting if you could test and post the results of the old stuff.

For .38 special SD/HD work I no longer use (haven't in 5 years now) products from the Big 3 Ammo Companies and instead use either Buffalo Bore HEAVY 158grain +P LSWCHP-GC and or Speer's Short Barrel 135 grain +P JHP, the later being better for lighter weight guns. From 2" barrels they produce a consistent 1025 fps and 860fps respectively, perform consistently, are extremely accurate and to date I have NEVER had any FTF from either the BB or the GD.

 

[Damol]

Any one try Underwood's version?

 

[chief38]

I've not had the opportunity to test Underwood ammo yet and in fact haven't even seen any around here. Truthfully I've been so happy with the BB Heavy and the Speer GD, I've not been actively looking for a new SD cartridge in .38 Special.

 

[badge 851]

Ughhh... gross.

I was in the market for some new Remington 158 gr. "HTP" .38 special +P LSWCHPs, but not anymore.

Looks like the old FBI load is dead, at least from the likes of Remington.

I'm not sure if Federal or Winchester even load their versions of the FBI load anymore, and that's a shame. As is this Remington watering down business.

My guess is Big Green did it to reduce price. I wouldn't doubt they were satisfied with reducing the powder charge or formula in order to cut costs.

These days, pretty much the only places you can find true full-power ammo are from companies like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap, Underwood, etc.

Federal® does not; but Winchester® does, load# X38SPD...
• http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-handgun/Pages/X38SPD.aspx

I use both of Buffalo Bore®'s 38 Special 158gr LSWCHCGC, standard pressure (#20C/20) and +P version (#20A/20); in my snub nose 357 & 38 Specials. The +P verson for my steel frame 357 & 38 and standard pressure for my Airweight® and Ultra-Lite® guns.

 

[kaaskop49]

Well, I wouldn't give up on the new HTP just yet. The stories of the new alloy being harder are anecdotal. As for the recorded velocities, the HTP and Express loadings seem to be virtually identical.

Once I can afford a box or two of HTP LHPs, I figure I'll do an unscientific "fingernail test" as I still have boxes of the previous version.

If the bullets are indeed made of a harder alloy, though, I'd have to agree with you. Why would Remington go and ruin a time-tested winner?

Because they can... (borrowed from ST: Voyager)

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

P.S. Forgive me, but I wonder where this excessive blast and muzzle flash from snub magnum barrels comes from? I often shoot mags loads in snubs indoors and I notice no excessive flash (there is a blast, but tolerable.). Nothing blinding me or preventing a double tap. People write the same thing about .22Mag in High-Standard derringers, deafening muzzle blast! Excuse me? Really? Please...

 

[Boge]

Federal® does not; but Winchester® does, load# X38SPD...
• http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-handgun/Pages/X38SPD.aspx...

Yes, but Win. hasn't loaded those in several years since their move in late 2010 and then the Great Ammo Panic. The same goes for their .44 Spcl. ST load. I sent them an e-mail and they said maybe later this year. I haven't seen a box since 2012!!

 

[badge 851]

Didn't know that, thanks for the update.

 

[Otreb]

I haven't seen any LHP .38sp ammo in my locale in quite some time. I used to find Impact branded FBI loads- which chrono mid 900s in my four inch K38, but it's been a while since those were common.
Currently, my snubby .38sp is loaded with BB +p 158gr, which does a solid upper 900fps in the 442-2. I also use their Barnes 110gr +p in a 1.41" bbl Taurus View, it's moving along too pushing 1100fps in that gun.
The only HTP Rem ammo I've tried over the chrono was their 230gr jhp in a 5" Kimber and 5" M1917 S&W, both were slowish.

 

[Goldstar225]

I had just ordered a box of the Remington 158 grain +P LSWCHP when I came across this thread. It arrived yesterday and I took it to the range today to chronograph. Chronograph was at 10' and the velocities are uncorrected. Here's my results for 5 rounds:

4" S&W model 15
High - 890
Low - 865
Average - 879

3" S&W model 60-15
High - 838
Low - 835
Average - 836

 

[CoMF]

Because they can... (borrowed from ST: Voyager)

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

P.S. Forgive me, but I wonder where this excessive blast and muzzle flash from snub magnum barrels comes from? I often shoot mags loads in snubs indoors and I notice no excessive flash (there is a blast, but tolerable.). Nothing blinding me or preventing a double tap. People write the same thing about .22Mag in High-Standard derringers, deafening muzzle blast! Excuse me? Really? Please...

Hey, Kaas! I only just saw this now. Sorry about that.

The "full house" magnum loads use slower-burning powders optimized for firing from longer barrels. When you fire them in a magnum snub, you get a lot of sound and fury from the unburnt powder that hasn't had a chance to burn completely.

In the case of Remington Golden Saber or Speer GDSB, they use flash-retardant powders designed to burn more completely in the shorter barrels they're likely to be fired from. Just my experience. Oddly enough, though, I can't say I've ever noticed excessive flash from the Winchester White Box 110 gr. load. Never fired the 158 gr. Gold Dot or CCI Blazer 158 gr. JHP from anything shorter than a 4" barrel, so I can't say anything about those.

 

[JayFramer]

Has anyone done a proper gel test with this new load? I have to say right now, if Remington were a person on fire I wouldn't even piss on them. The FBI load is dead as of September 2015. THANKS BIG GREEN!!!!

 

[kaaskop49]

Is this a box of the old FBI loads? They came from a woman whose husband was LE. Semi-wadcutter hollow point stuff. All the cartridges are well kept and like new. I'm thinking the box is from the late 1970's but not sure.

Very late 70s/early 80s. I have several identical boxes. Just CAN'T stop using this vintage ammo in my J-frame .38s. Have enough that I don't have to buy anything "newer and (not) improved."

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[CoMF]

The FBI load is dead as of September 2015. THANKS BIG GREEN!!!!

I'm not especially pleased with Remington's business decision either, but it may not be "dead" yet. As I've said before, if the reports of harder alloyed bullets are to be believed and the velocities have been reduced, it should still work fine from barrels of 3" or more. We just no longer have it as a viable option for snubs.

Kaaskop,

Do you remember when exactly Winchester changed the bullet alloy in response to leading complaints from some PDs? I know that when it was first introduced in the early 70's, the bullets were much softer.