LEO use of Smiths...???...

[Ed333]

I have recently become acquainted, with great pleasure, with the S&W family of 3rd generation pistols. My question is, why did the police departments abandon them? The local departments all seem to go for Glocks and the like. I guess I can understand the flight from the 9mm (without necessarily agreeing with the reasoning), but S&W offered 40's, 45's etc...
Is there really a relatively short useful life for a service weapon? If not, why all the trade-ins?
I ask from ignorance...

 

[Amici]

I can think of two reasons:

1. WEIGHT. The old pistols were all metal and, therefore, heavy.

2. More accurate under stress. Glocks and the new M&Ps have the same trigger pull, first shot or last. The old crunch-n-tickers had that l-o-n-g first pull; then the short pull. Many cops missed the first shot for that reason.

 

[WaterburyBob]

Also, in the 80's and 90's, Glock was practically giving them to police departments.
It's hard to say no to an inexpensive pistol.

Nothing wrong with Glocks - they're good pistols, but Glock did make it hard for other companies to compete back then.

 

[ecam8000]

Locally, it's the armorers that dictate what they will work on. Sigs fell victim to this lately.

 

[kokopelli]

Also, in the 80's and 90's, Glock was practically giving them to police departments.
It's hard to say no to an inexpensive pistol.

Nothing wrong with Glocks - they're good pistols, but Glock did make it hard for other companies to compete back then.

BINGO!!! Back in '98, our department wanted to switch to the newest 'wonder round', the .40. We had Smith 6906's up to that point. When they went a biddin', Block sold them a gun + 3 mags, PLUS holster dirt cheap. -Less than half of Smith's bid, 3/4 of Sig's.
So now I have a Tupperware pistol I can put in the dishwasher to clean!!

 

[Muley Gil]

While this comment has NOTHING to do with the original post, I would say that the largest police force armed with S&W pistols would be the Afghanistan National Police. They have 9mm Sigmas. Approximently 75,000 pistols were bought for the ANP; however, I'm not sure if they were all issued or not.

 

[sigp220.45]

The New Mexico State Police currently issue M&Ps in .357 Sig.

I was just visiting some of my homies in Twin Falls, Idaho, and the PD is trading in their Glock 22s for M&P .45s.

Maybe there is some hope.

 

[Big Lou]

Before I retired in 07, I saw many 5903's, 6906's, 659's, 3913's riding in both patrol & detective holsters. At the time the issued weapon to new boots were 229 Sig 9mm's. Have I no doubt, those weapons are still on the job!

 

[10mm Sonny]

At least the California Highway Patrol is on the right track.

 

[blueknight7]

When I retired in 2002, tactical tupperware was the way to go. The Sigma had bombed, and was not even in question. A few Sigs, and a sprinkling of S&W third generation, along with some Beretta 92's and 96's. Yes, I carried a Glock 20, from 1990 til retirement. Also have a Glock 29, to go along with it. Yeah, I am 10mm crazy.
Well now, I still have the Glock 29. But, to go along with it, one Colt Delta Elite, and one S&W 1026. Steel feels alot more comfortable to wrap my hands around.
I do also have the blown knees, and back from steel handguns, leather gun belts, and ergonomically lousy patrol car seats. Not counting 2 years of 1200 cc. Electroglide motorcycle, in battle conditions.
Plastic and nylon was wonderful. But steel and leather is alot more appealing.

 

[BigRich315]

While this comment has NOTHING to do with the original post, I would say that the largest police force armed with S&W pistols would be the Afghanistan National Police. They have 9mm Sigmas. Approximently 75,000 pistols were bought for the ANP; however, I'm not sure if they were all issued or not.

I've been quoting that number for some time now, but my source simply stated that NATO bought them. So THAT'S where they ended up!

 

[erickg]

At least the California Highway Patrol is on the right track.

You are correct, I carry a 4006 TSW every day and love it. I love the heft of an all steel pistol, sadly I'm afraid its the last one of its kind I will be issued. Our pistols are new though, so hopefully I can avoid having to pack a plastic piece for a few more years.

 

[masonsdad]

Luckily my dept. lets us carry what we want, within reason....no Desert Eagles, etc. I had been carrying a Glock for the last 10 years, and have just switched back to a 4506-1 and love it. Found a Safariland level 2 holster for it in a bargain bin at the local uniform place for about $20. Looking for 2 open mag pouches for 4 spare mags and I'll be good to go. Nothing against Glocks, just like the Smith better.

 

[HayesGreener]

Police Guns

I went through the process of justifying funding and buying new guns for the PD when the auto pistol rage took ahold in the 80's and then for replacements in the 90's. (we bought S&W 669/6906's first go around and SIG 40's second go around). All this had been made possible by the fact that the military had been looking for a new sidearm to replace the GI 45 and every manufacturer in the world went to work trying to develop the gun that would get the contract. The gun had to be a 9mm because 9mm was the standard NATO round and the political decision was made to make all American weapons compatible so we could share ammo with our NATO allies. The proliferation of hi-cap handguns meant the bad guys were able to buy and carry more firepower than the average officer on the street. This led to some well reasoned arguments inside the law enforcement community to transition police departments to autos, coupled with a lot of hysteria in the media and political agendas to "protect our police". So the mad rush was now on to buy hi-cap, semi autos. S&W already had the answer since the 50's in the Model 39 genesis guns and a lot of cops were comfortable with them. Many liked the 1911 type guns but you just can't get some safety folks past the locked and cocked thing. A lot of agencies bought the S&W's with great result but there were also a lot of quality problems due to the rush to production. There were also big problems with the Beretta's early on both in police and military units. The best manstopper cartridge was unquestionably the 10mm and the 45, but there were unsurmountable problems in teaching novice police officers to shoot them accurately due to recoil muzzle flash and report, and the .40 and .357 Sig cartridges evolved from that aspect. Agencies that had the funds bought Sigs and some H&K's to get past the reliability issues they had seen in S&W and Beretta, but they cost more than S&W and Beretta and double the cost of Glocks and that's where Glock found their niche-a cheap reliable gun that allowed departments to buy the gun now and quiet the clamor for more firepower. It's interesting to note that many SWAT teams and special units in the military stayed with the 1911 all along and still carry them today. The military experience with the 9mm in the current conflicts has been dismal and many are calling for a larger caliber, no surprise there, that argument has been going back and forth relative to repeating handguns since 1836 (remember the military can only use ball ammo). It appears that S&W has addressed the QC issues it had early on during the semi-auto boom and the M&P series is emerging-I predict the M&P will become the standard of American law enforcement in the future in calibers larger than the 9mm and wouldn't be surprised to see the U.S. Military adopt it in 45 as their service weapon.

 

[Landric]

My department has had Berettas for years, first the 92FS, now the 96FS. The 96s are about 12 years old now, and most of them are pretty worn out. We were supposed to be switching to the Glock 22 (gag), but now it seems that S&W made us an offer on the M&P and it sounds like the powers that be are seriously considering it. Most of the folks want to switch to the .45 ACP anyway(me included), and if we go M&P, Smith is willing to trade out all our .40S&W ammo for .45ACP. Our huge stock of .40S&W ammo was the reason we were not going to switch to the .45 originally.

I carry a M&P45 at my part-time job and I couldn't be happier with it. I am hoping the deal works out for us.

I think that S&W did a couple of things to knock themselves out of the LE market over the last fifteen years or so. First, the Sigma was a flop, and its reputation has never recovered in LE circles since then, no matter how well the current version might work. Second, the all steel guns got to the point where they cost twice as much or more than everyone's favorite plastic gun, the Glock. Third, LE was moving away from DA/SA to striker-fired, and S&W didn't offer anything that fit the bill. I think the 4566TSW is about the perfect DA/SA duty gun, but for $1000+ retail, not a lot of departments were interested in going there.

Hopefully the M&P will get S&W back into the LE game big-time, it seems to be making progress so far. The two biggest city departments near me have made or are making the switch to the M&P45, as has one of the large Sheriff's Offices. The SO in the county I work in is currently in the process of switching to the M&P40, and State Probation and Parole went with the M&P40 in late 2007.

 

[18DAI]

S&W has told the local agencies still using 3rd generation pistols (4566) that they won't continue to support them with parts and spares as they are being discontinued.

In other words, they are making more money off plastic guns, so buy those. One of these agencies is going to Glock 22's instead.

No thanks. I'll stick with the 3rd generation pistols. If I was forced to go to a striker fired plastic gun........I'd buy the XDm. Regards 18DAI.

 

[AJW]

All the mentioned posts are correct. I went through the process in replacing department handguns earlier this decade and am involved currently doing it again. Earlier this decade, the department I was with carried a combination of 659, 5906 and 6906. We ran a process to get new handguns. The finalists were Glock 22 and 4006. Everything was pretty well even besides mag capacity. Both performed flawlessly. But, it does comes down to price and spending the taxpayer dollar. We were offered Glock 22's with night sights and tactical lights for substantially cheaper than a stock 4006(standard sights). I believe the cost was so severe we basically bought two full Glock packages for the cost of one Smith.
Additionally, armorer school was only a one day course and the parts we kept on hand were a fraction of what we needed with the Smiths. Glock owns 75% of the aftermarket accesories to include holsters, etc.

In my current department we are currently testing new handguns. Last week I tested the M&P compared to the Glock. Both did well and the prices are nearly identical. It may once again come down to a money issue but we will see.

 

[JamesArthur60]

I believe many departments are continuing the S&W tradition. I know Columbus and Cincinnati were first in line to carry the M&P 40. But, low bids win out many times and Glock is the master of self promoting their firearms.

 

[surveyor47]

I am not much of a semi auto guy, so please forgive my question. I happen to like the S&W 3rd Generation semi autos precisely because I feel as safe handling them as I do with a double action revolver, that an accidental discharge is unlikely. I have specifically rejected Glocks, because they are so easy to fire, deliberately or accidentally, to the point that they require special holsters, which in fact act as a safety. The only Glock style pistol that I find acceptable is the Springfield Armory XD, which has a 1911 style grip safety.

The gun shop guys (off duty police officers) tell me that the S&W 3rd Generation semi autos were dropped because so many officers were killed while trying to manipulate the safety and the transition from DA to SA fire. They all of them (including a relative who is a retired pistol instructor) have told me that police want a gun without safeties to manipulate after drawing. They want to be able to simply draw and fire. For this reason, they have advised me to either stick with my revolvers or get a "modern" gun, such as the S&W M&P or Springrield DX or Glock.

What is your opinion?

 

[Ed333]

...snip...
The gun shop guys (off duty police officers) tell me that the S&W 3rd Generation semi autos were dropped because so many officers were killed while trying to manipulate the safety and the transition from DA to SA fire. They all of them (including a relative who is a retired pistol instructor) have told me that police want a gun without safeties to manipulate after drawing. They want to be able to simply draw and fire. For this reason, they have advised me to either stick with my revolvers or get a "modern" gun, such as the S&W M&P or Springrield DX or Glock.

What is your opinion?

I shoot only at the range, and don't carry, so the question as phrased is moot for me. For me, the question becomes 'Which do I shoot better?', and the jury is out on that for me at the moment. As a Range Officer presiding over matches, I find my club's mandated safety procedures best suited for (and probably based upon) the use of a 1911. Taking speed and accuracy into account, my best scores to date have been with my 952 and a 1911.