M&P loses to Glock

By the numbers? Then yea

509 million — number of mailpieces processed and delivered each day
21.2 million — average number of mailpieces processed each hour
353,000— average number of mailpieces processed each minute
5,890 — average number of mailpieces processed each second
206 million — pieces of First-Class Mail processed and delivered.

509 million per day x 6 days a week. Yea I'd say they do a great job.

And for the sake of this topic. ...yes I would look at what the FBI is buying. They may well be a gov agency but they sure test to snot out of their equipment. Responsible for the innovation of modern ammo. Again....if it wasn't for their testing and their standards we may not have the type of self defense ammo we have today. Responsible for 2 new calibers that spawned a third you like so much. I'd say they are in the forefront of firearms technology. Are they inventing this in their labs? No of course not. But they are big enough to ask for and receive.

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I've had more than enough experience with the USPS (including working for them years ago) to know that for whatever numbers that can be thrown out about what they do correct, the number of misdelivered, mishandled or outright stolen pieces of mail is staggering. There's a reason they keep sucking up billions of dollars but never really improve...they're a bloated govt bureaucracy that's pretty much unaccountable. So no, I disagree. They don't do a great job, I don't even think they hold the line. They didn't get their package delivery act together 'til FedEx showed up and kicked their tail ten ways to Sunday.

Contentiousness aside, equating the success of the USPS with the FBI's effectiveness is a misdirection, anyway. The reputation of our Federal govt in wasting a colossal amount of tax payer money, their rabid pursuit of political ambition and operating in an atmosphere of a complete dearth of common sense is obvious. Even if the USPS was the outlier that did their job well, that means nothing in relation to how the FBI conducts ammo or weapons testing.

And no, the FBI is not "responsible" for ammo innovation, any more than taxes create wealth. In fact I think the FBI recommendations are retrograde. I won't plow into Miami 1986 again for the umpteenth time, but sufficed to say their attempt to hide their catastrophic training by blaming one single Silver Tip round and screaming 'Penetration!' for 30 years has done little to convince me they really know what they're doing. As you said about "that round you like so much", and I assume you mean the .357 Sig, it actually runs counter in philosphy to the FBI's deep digging ice pick round mentality. The 357 Sig is light weight, high speed and has a hellacious impact. Not heavy, slow, drillling 'all the way through' subsonic junk. And counter to what the FBI's protocol says about it, it does actually work and very, very well. If Sig lived and died by the FBI's ammuntion 'innovation', that round would never have been seen the light of day in the first place.

It is funny that the Secret Service has ignored the FBI protocol and decided that the high energy, warp speed Sig round is their choice to use in protecting the top elected folk of our nation. Now that's interesting. Wonder why they and the Federal Air Marshals, whose job descriptions includes really, really, really needing to stop a threat right now have chosen to disregard the FBI's 9mm? Maybe they know something the Feebs don't?

And as far as the FBI being 'responsible' for two new calibers? Ok, they gave us the .40 S&W. A castrated 10mm. Big whoop...there was nothing the forty could ever do that a great 9mm or 45 couldn't. It was an answer to a non-existent question that begins with "Do you have enough penetration?!?!?!" The other round? If you're talking about the .357 Magnum, that was birthed by Elmer Keith for the most part, and the Feebs hardly were 'responsible' for it.

But as a refresher, the FBI were the ones that said the 9mm was the way to go back in the early to mid-80's. Then they said "Whoops, we were wrong, not enough penetration. It's bad." Then they went to the 10mm. Then they said "Whoops. Too much blast, we can't handle it. It's bad." Then they gutted the 10mm and issued the .40 S&W. Now they're saying "Whoops. We were wrong, too big, not enough capacity, too much recoil. We were wrong. It's bad." And now they're back to the nine....apparently they're running out of calibers to blame and change to. Maybe the .45 GAP is their next big thing!

I'll give you that the FBI crime labs are highly talented, and some of the Agents I know really bust their butt and care about their job. But their 'testing' of firearms is hardly second to none and their understanding of gunfighting certainly isn't earth shattering. And don't you imagine their requirement of hiring and graduating smaller, non-conventional recruits might have something to do with going to a soft recoiling polymer pistol?

The days of all the G-Men being a 6"1', 230 lb. burly hoss are largely gone. But a 5"5', 125 lb. featherweight female? Sure. But then, you'd need an expensive 9mm protocol to justify why you're issuing soft shooting, easy recoiling rounds and pistols, wouldn't you?
 
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The days of all the G-Men being a 6"1', 230 lb. burly hoss are largely gone. But a 5"5', 125 lb. featherweight female? Sure. But then, you'd need an expensive 9mm protocol to justify why you're issuing soft shooting, easy recoiling rounds and pistols, wouldn't you?

Except most of that is Internet rumors. The 10 was never a full blown 10. It was always loaded down. And men back then we're no bigger. In fact on avg people were smaller

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Why do you think M&P did not meet the RFP specifications? Out of the box, the M&P and the M&P Longslide fit perfectly into the specs. Neither Glock nor M&P met all criteria, but M&P was arguably closer, off the shelf.

I think that they did not meet the RFP specifications because the RFP desired 2 different size frames. I believe that was clarified when they answer the manufacturer questions. I agree, in terms of slide length the 9FS and the 9L met the requirement, but those two pistols use the same frame. I also agree that the M&P met other parts of the requirements out of the box, but a lack of a midsize frame would leave it out in the cold.

My intent of the original post was to see if anyone knew what S&W actually submitted, not to rehash why Glock may or may not have been awarded the contract. Do we know if a mid size M&P was submitted, or did they throw away their change at the contract by refusing to comply with the RFP specs?

Heck, they could have molded a 1/2" shorter frame, cut down some magazines, and gone with the FS slide for the class 1 pistol. The 9L would have taken care of the class 2.

It seems that there is a rumor that the FBI Glock will be available for sale under the blue label program after the initial order goes to the FBI. It that's the case I'll take the funds that I'd have used for a mid sized M&P to pick one up. I'm not sure how we got a ported Shield before we got a mid size.
 
Closing deals is messy business. You can bet that plenty of all expense trips to Amsterdam, Macao and Rio were paid for by all contenders as well as visits to more local men's establishments. Been on both sides of that for a long time.
 
They chose the Gen 3 and the sight were replaced with Trijicon night sights.
 
They chose the Gen 3 and the sight were replaced with Trijicon night sights.

Gen 3 Glocks do not meet several clearly stated requirements in the RFP. I'm quite positive that they won't be adopting the Gen 3. I'm not sure where you received your information.
 
Politics, it's all politics, not the quality of the firearm in question. What amazed me is why the 9mm? Remember the Miami shootout in the 80's…hello FBI. Many Metro PD's have stepped up to the 40 caliber or 45. Didn't the Navy SEALS switch to Glocks?



It's because many agents can't handle the .40 at qualification.
 
I think Glock-bashing is popular because Glock has taken over a large portion of the handgun buying public...and not for nothing as they say.
Glock builds a VERY simple handgun that functions with boring reliability. No, it's not everyone's cup of tea, and S&W's offering of striker-fired handguns have superior ergonomics, but there will forever be the "Glock bias" when it comes to contracts.

It's like when something is popular and it suddenly becomes uncool to like it. Not hip and underground enough ha
 
It's like when something is popular and it suddenly becomes uncool to like it. Not hip and underground enough ha

So there are firearms hipsters? Wonder if they wear old Raven Arms t-shirts ironically or use Betamax cameras to make shooting videos...

"Hey, gun hipster, what's your favorite pistol?"
"Ehhh, whatever, it's nothing you'd have ever never heard of anyway..."
 
Politics, it's all politics, not the quality of the firearm in question. What amazed me is why the 9mm? Remember the Miami shootout in the 80's…hello FBI. Many Metro PD's have stepped up to the 40 caliber or 45. Didn't the Navy SEALS switch to Glocks?

I'm sure they remember the Miami shootout. But 30 years later they've evaluated modern offerings and determined that 9mm should meet their needs.

Yes, Navy Seals selected Glock...in 9mm.
 
I've had more than enough experience with the USPS (including working for them years ago) to know that for whatever numbers that can be thrown out about what they do correct, the number of misdelivered, mishandled or outright stolen pieces of mail is staggering.

Well, I reckon the cat's out of the bag now, isn't it? The frightening and ghastly truth can now be revealed.
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The M&P failed to be chosen simply because Smith & Wesson mailed its entries in, and they didn't arrive in time to be tested.
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I just knew there had to be a good reason.
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The chair recognizes and acknowledges the gentleman's point of order, lol! Just kidding, but from what I've read, I'd have to say it appears otherwise...

U.S. Post Office gets an $18 billion gift from taxpayers every year - Fortune

I don't disagree with that article, but tax abatement, low interest loans, and a monopoly on home delivery are significantly offset by a requirement, imposed on no other federal agency, that the USPS prefund its retirement accounts, which is the main problem with its cashflow.
 
Glock had an unfair advantage. No change to training to agents and I bet the holsters would work with the new guns. The Glock does nothing better than the M&P. Mass produced polymer striker fired gun is what they both are. I bet Glock gave a sweetheart deal too. They surely have a history of nearly giving guns away to get big contracts.

In what way is that unfair? Smith & Wesson can give them away too if they choose to. So far it's been good for Glock's business.
 
Exactly my point. The decision was about saving money and time, not necessarily about the better product. Is the Glock a ***? Course not, and I don't think the government is gonna put something so awful into the hands of its agents. I'm just saying that he Glock won the bid simply for price and convenience, not because it's a superior product.

A: Saving money and time, along with price and convenience is how the competitive bid process usually shakes out. We sent men to the moon on low bid . . .

B: I believe you went on to say that gov't would intentionally put something awful in the hands of its employees below:

Look at the Checkmate M9 mags that the government bought about a million of to save a few nickels per mag. They were a disaster. Family of deployed soldiers were sending their loved ones factory mags. Same thing.
 
Low bid this, low bid that. Yes and it's good. Low bud simply means who can make a product as cheap as possible for our standard. The standard doesn't change. It doesn't mean some company submits a pot metal gun because it was the cheapest thing to make.

Private companies would love nothing more than to submit some crazy price for a product and have the government accept it. I'd like to make a gun and have the government pay me 1 million per. Would that be better? Look at the military AR TDP. The TDP doesn't change but if someone else can make the same thing cheaper then the military would buy that.





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