Marijuana Question

Sarcasm ignored. However, the point is that you won't make criminals into square johns by legalizing, so skip the talking point
that it will. Criminals will do something else. Weed heads may be happy, the vote in colorado will be blue, but criminals will continue to commit crime.
You may think cartel members are only capable of the weed business, but that isn't how they think, and it isn't even their main business anymore.

I'm not saying legalizing it will make all the problems go away. I'm not a dunderhead who's baked my brain. But I am saying with this particular subject, we can make significant economic changes. Cut spending on the penal side by a decent amount, raise a bunch through taxes, and use that substantial change in revenue to invest in things like a better border fence and more tools to go after the cartels penchant for smuggling humans, coke, heroin, and whatever else they may be into. Did repealing Prohibition end the Mob? Of course not. Was it good overall? Sure seems we're better off. Haven't seen too many Valentine's Day Massacres over alcohol distribution since then.
 
Sarcasm ignored. However, the point is that you won't make criminals into square johns by legalizing, so skip the talking point
that it will. Criminals will do something else. Weed heads may be happy, the vote in colorado will be blue, but criminals will continue to commit crime.
You may think cartel members are only capable of the weed business, but that isn't how they think, and it isn't even their main business anymore.

So, it would make no difference if cannabis was legal or not.

With all the good medical things that cannabis can be used for..
what's the problem making it legal?

What if you could grow and make your own medicine from a plant in the back yard that would treat or cure most diseases? And it's a long list?
 
Glad you see my point regarding the cure-all talking point so often put forward by many advocates.
My first post in this recent exchange was specific in that. I couldn't care about theory, all I know is there are still massacres that make valentines day small potato. I haven't said I was against legalization. That's up to the voters.
Sorry if I sound cynical.
 
Glad you see my point regarding the cure-all talking point so often put forward by many advocates.
My first post in this recent exchange was specific in that. I couldn't care about theory, all I know is there are still massacres that make valentines day small potato. I haven't said I was against legalization. That's up to the voters.
Sorry if I sound cynical.

I get the cynicism. How's that saying go about all laws starting with good intent? LOL

My theoretical legalization scenario goes something like this
A: Must be grown in the USA, no foreign supplies allowed.
B: Farms and greenhouses must be owned by an individual (or family) and go through a licensing process. Can not be corporate owned!
C: Corporations can be involved on the processing side, if RJ Reynolds wants to come out with a MjArlboro, I'm all for it.
D: No advertising period, not on TV, not in print, no billboards, etc...
E: Age limits same as alcohol.
F: Develop a testing protocol that can determine intoxication (and not just general usage) like what we have with BAC for alcohol.
G: Definitely allow personal growing. Similar to home brewing/winemaking. I know this works against the taxation angle, but I'd rather have a million home growers here in the US buying supplies from their local garden store for their own stash than a bunch of illegals camping in soCal National Forests running an illegal weed farm that puts LEOs at risk and sends the profits south of the border.

Really not too far off what we already do with alcohol and tobacco with much stricter advertising and a slight socialist twist to it on the growing side. I know it'll never happen. My plan would piss everyone off except the end user, so no politician would vote for it in Congress. Not enough profit potential for big corporations, probably violates WTO regulations, and certainly hurts the corporations that profit from the war on drugs (private prisons, drug testing companies, etc..).
 
Sarcasm ignored. However, the point is that you won't make criminals into square johns by legalizing, so skip the talking point
that it will. Criminals will do something else. Weed heads may be happy, the vote in colorado will be blue, but criminals will continue to commit crime.
You may think cartel members are only capable of the weed business, but that isn't how they think, and it isn't even their main business anymore.

You keep making the same 'points' with little evidence to back them up. The burden of proof is not met on most of your claims and telling us to skip the talking point while not addressing thoroughly it is a little absurd.

Lets take your argument that criminals are born that way and therefore will move to some other crime if the economic incentive to sell marijuana is removed. See "Transitions From Prison To Community: Understanding Individual Pathways" by Visher in which the recidivism rate is estimated at 70%. A habitual criminal, which you generalize to include all criminals, bad from birth, would always commit another crime, so since the recidivism rate is not 100% that's at least ~30% of criminals who are either rehabilitated or perhaps were criminals due to circumstances such as vast black market profits rather than being born bad. Also with the number of bogus laws in this nation, more than likely we are all breaking some law right now, but that doesn't mean we are defective.

Furthermore, since you fail to challenge the claim based on an economic perspective, I will assume you agree in general with the whole supply-demand argument already given, you're counterclaim is that it will simply reallocate criminals into another black market as you did in your example about bootleggers. First, prove that all or most bootleggers moved into another illegal exercise as you claim and generalize that to the current situation. Second, you talk about a transition of non-violent offenders into violent offenders because all criminals are the same in your world view. Again not proven, and a good chunk of psychology work would disagree with you, this has been studied in detail in domestic abusers. Also, since it is a black market, the only way to settle disputes is with violence, so the fact that it is illegal might be contributing to the violence you speak of. Third, even if all of the above is true, it doesn't mean that it should be illegal. Prohibition as you pointed out (still don't think your claims are all true but lets say they are) did all of those things, but that doesn't imply we should have kept prohibition.

As for the cartel point, the nice thing about the argument given is that it applies to many of the ways organized crime raises revenue (drugs other than marijuana, prostitution, illegal gambling and so on) . As a medical professional, I abhor drug use, but it's time for us to get realistic, prohibition doesn't work and the current war on drugs with mandatory sentencing laws and militarized police forces simply increases the profits for those willing to take the risk. I've met my fair share of people who are involved in the trade and they aren't scarface or dahmer, they are some looser trying to make a quick buck.

But the stats being used to discuss marijuana being safe are misleading, you can eat or consume alot of it and it won't kill you, its LD50 is absurd, so is LSDs for that matter, but long term use and high dose short term use does have negative effects that are difficult to measure. That being said, it is safer than alcohol though in alot of ways, the weed not the acid :D
 
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You keep making the same 'points' with little evidence to back them up. The burden of proof is not met on most of your claims and telling us to skip the talking point while not addressing thoroughly it is a little absurd.

Lets take your argument that criminals are born that way and therefore will move to some other crime if the economic incentive to sell marijuana is removed. See "Transitions From Prison To Community: Understanding Individual Pathways" by Visher in which the recidivism rate is estimated at 70%. A habitual criminal, which you generalize to include all criminals, bad from birth, would always commit another crime, so since the recidivism rate is not 100% that's at least ~30% of criminals who are either rehabilitated or perhaps were criminals due to circumstances such as vast black market profits rather than being born bad. Also with the number of bogus laws in this nation, more than likely we are all breaking some law right now, but that doesn't mean we are defective.

Furthermore, since you fail to challenge the claim based on an economic perspective, I will assume you agree in general with the whole supply-demand argument already given, you're counterclaim is that it will simply reallocate criminals into another black market as you did in your example about bootleggers. First, prove that all or most bootleggers moved into another illegal exercise as you claim and generalize that to the current situation. Second, you talk about a transition of non-violent offenders into violent offenders because all criminals are the same in your world view. Again not proven, and a good chunk of psychology work would disagree with you, this has been studied in detail in domestic abusers. Also, since it is a black market, the only way to settle disputes is with violence, so the fact that it is illegal might be contributing to the violence you speak of. Third, even if all of the above is true, it doesn't mean that it should be illegal. Prohibition as you pointed out (still don't think your claims are all true but lets say they are) did all of those things, but that doesn't imply we should have kept prohibition.

As for the cartel point, the nice thing about the argument given is that it applies to many of the ways organized crime raises revenue (drugs other than marijuana, prostitution, illegal gambling and so on) . As a medical professional, I abhor drug use, but it's time for us to get realistic, prohibition doesn't work and the current war on drugs with mandatory sentencing laws and militarized police forces simply increases the profits for those willing to take the risk. I've met my fair share of people who are involved in the trade and they aren't scarface or dahmer, they are some looser trying to make a quick buck.

But the stats being used to discuss marijuana being safe are misleading, you can eat or consume alot of it and it won't kill you, its LD50 is absurd, so is LSDs for that matter, but long term use and high dose short term use does have negative effects that are difficult to measure. That being said, it is safer than alcohol though in alot of ways, the weed not the acid :D
You keep trying to start an argument. I'm not.
This statement I made is fact. My experience is that criminal behavior of CARTEL will not cease as a result of legalization. I do not care to argue with you over the internet about the price of snuff, domestic abuse, LSD, alcohol, eating weed, or anything else you seem to care about. Believe the smugglers will stop smuggling and go back to their beanfields if you want. It won't happen.
I repeat, I have no opinion on legalization, it is up to the voters.
 
There's no requirement here in Colorado pertaining to having any kind of clearances-as arjay pointed out, if ANY employer (regardless of the type of business) has a policy that you can't use pot, are found out to do so you can be fired without any complications.
 
The basic answer is Yes, they can. The topic has been in the local news a lot and the general consensus is Yes.

If the company has a policy against drug use, they make the rules for their employees to observe. It isn't much different than hospitals that disallow tabacco smoking by employees. If the company is in more than just Colorado -- all states -- then, they can abide by federal law and treat all employees equally.
 
There's no requirement here in Colorado pertaining to having any kind of clearances-as arjay pointed out, if ANY employer (regardless of the type of business) has a policy that you can't use pot, are found out to do so you can be fired without any complications.

With Colorado being a "employment-at-will" state..
you can be let go at any time without reason.
You don't even need to pee in a cup!
 
And the Hummingbirds still fly...


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Wonder if we're missing something?
 
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I hope I don't ever need it for that disease, but I know it eased the cancer suffering of my first wife, in Mexico City- (where it is legal BTW).

Yes, it will kill pain.

He wasn't taking the oil for pain. He was taking it to try and cure his prostate cancer.. and to this point he has.

He is a Biochemist, graduated from the University of Houston and did his Graduate Work at Baylor Medical School. Dennis worked as a Cancer Researcher at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.
 
Yes, it will kill pain.

He wasn't taking the oil for pain. He was taking it to try and cure his prostate cancer.. and to this point he has.

He is a Biochemist, graduated from the University of Houston and did his Graduate Work at Baylor Medical School. Dennis worked as a Cancer Researcher at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.
I read the blog. I'm actually familiar with the procedure. My wife used it for Nausea relief from chemo (30 yrs ago). Last trip for me to MD anderson was six yrs ago.:)
I wasn't a researcher, either... :)
 
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I'd like to understand the logic that allows card carrying pot smokers to have open stores, coffee shops and brownie bakeries with hooka lounges here in Maine's biggest city, but if I light up a Marlboro within 50' of the dope den's front door I go to jail.
 
The push to prevent kids from starting and to convince us old nicotine fiends to quit has really gone over the top.We are seeing the same mentality towards people who over eat.
The Puritan ethic is going nuts again.
 
To change this.. you must add the FDA label.

Not sure if sarcasm but I don't care much for the FDA, they really complicate the research process and are slow to accept new drugs that can be rapidly discovered and developed using modern techniques.

Hopefully there will be more human trials for the anti-neoplastic roles of cannabinoids, the majority of clinical trials are for its use in satiety, anti-emetics and sleep. It is a real shame that if what Dr. Hill suggests is occurring in vivo (unfortunately the biochemical pathway effects he is discussing have only been observed in vitro or in non-human animal models) he should get a study together and get something published in a peer-reviewed journal. I searched for some articles of his regarding this but didn't find any except for the two mentioned on his website which have not been published in a reputable journal.

EDIT:

Since people seem interested in this, here is a really thorough paper describing the system possibly manipulated by this treatment. Warning lots of chemistry talk...

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ije/2013/259676/
 
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Drunk and/or stoned at work is not good for the employee or the company. A man should have the sense that he must be able to perform his job well and safely.
Still, being drunk (I really don't know how to describe this condition) is overlooked in many jobs,
I did not smoke when working---but after work there were so many who got together and we were fine the next day.
I don't care to hear the arguements that it stays in the system longer---I never found it to be a factor in my judgement the next day---and---I would not have done it if I thought it would or did.
I am just saying that the drug itself, as with alcohol, is not the cuplrit. As usual---it is the individual.
I am just telling the real world experience I had with involvement in this past time.
Your opinion is OK with me and you can do it your way. :D
Blessings
 
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What about others being exposed to second hand smoke? Will they test positive?

Does anyone think Colorado will see more auto accidents?

Is there any way to prove fault if injured by a drug user?
Short answer to second hand smoke question - No.

Long answer - I have been exposed to second hand smoke quite often for 20 years and I've never failed a urine test. For the past 4 years I've been getting hair tested once a year for good measure and get random clippings when I hit on the lottery, never had a blip for pot. I did test positive for hydrocodone 4 months after I last took any. I had a prescription so the testing agency contacted our nurse and told her they verified it and passed me.
 
Sooner or later there will be a lawsuit in a marijuana legal state after someone gets fired for testing positive. If alcohol can be consumed while not at work and the employee not have any aftereffects the next day, then why can't marijuana be consumed? I know that some sort of test will have to be developed to determine what level of thc will be considered unacceptable while working or driving.
 
The issue that I see is that traces of marijuana stay in a person's system a lot longer than alcohol.
 
I'd like to understand the logic that allows card carrying pot smokers to have open stores, coffee shops and brownie bakeries with hooka lounges here in Maine's biggest city, but if I light up a Marlboro within 50' of the dope den's front door I go to jail.

I'll give that logic a try.

First, I don't think you "go to jail" but I'll stipulate to the dramatic effect concept.

An "open store" or "brownie bakery" doesn't subject anyone to offensive smoke. It's just like an "open store" for tobacco. I don't think tobacco addicts are baking their drug into brownies but if they did, perhaps that would be similar. It's the SMOKE that's the offending property.

A "hooka lounge" is no doubt similar to a "cigar lounge" or other place where tobacco smokers are legally allowed to congregate and smoke.

A pot smoker within the same distance from the front door of an establishment is surely in violation of the same thing that a tobacco smoker is under the same situation. Plus the pot smoker is probably in violation if he's smoking ANYwhere in public, not just within 50 feet of something.


Sgt Lumpy
 
I love the "medicinal" argument to legalize the drug.And there seems to be a legitimate need for that. That may be true for a small group of people, but let's at least be honest, people want to get stoned.There looked to be a whole bunch of "sick" people standing on line in Colorado the other day. :rolleyes: I wonder if some of them were ever at their doctors office for any ailment. They all must have been allergic to prescription pills, for their ailments, since they were buying everything but. Unless...... brownies, gum drops and lollypops are used to combat your "allergy" to taking pills.:D
 
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