medic15al
Member
I thought the Beretta 92D was authorized as well? EAU only maybe?
NYPD Off-Duty Question
- Thread starter CTSP-0960
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I thought the Beretta 92D was authorized as well? EAU only maybe?
kbm6893
Member
ESU had the 92 way back on a trial basis. I think it might have even been the actual 92FS, and not the double action only 92D. Rumor had it that it did not make the cut because some EDP (emotionally disturbed person) manged to get the slide off like Jet Li did in Lethal Wepaon 4 by grabbing the slide while flipping the takedown lever and yanking it off. Of course, if you do a search, you will see how Jet Li managed to do that trick in the movie. The slide was already unlocked and the takedown lever was already down! Not to mention the gun was also a movie prop and not capable of firing.
kbm6893
Member
Actually, the job DID issue 10 round mags. Cops that had the trial Ruger's had 10 round mags for them, and the first class to be trained with 9MM's was in 1993, while David Dinkins (anti-cop Al Sharpton disciple) was mayor. He lost the election to guiliani is 1994, and the first thing Guiliani did was make Bill Bratton his PC. Bratton quickly authorized 15 round mags, and the night before gun and shield day, members of the firearms section were up all night on OT converting the 10 round mags to 15. 2500 graduating cops meant 7500 mags had to be changed!
I finish my 29th year this January....AND my trustworthy source is the Sr gunsmith at RN...
I do not doubt there were 10 round mags (especially the Ruger test guns) and the range prolly had them ready, BUT they were NEVER issued to uniform MOS who carried Glocks, 5946's or Sig's.
Scotter260
Member
Trial Rugers?
What years, which model(s) (89DAO, 93DAO, etc.), how many?
I assume they didn't last long hence the title of "trial", were there issues?
I find this thread very interesting, thank you all for keeping it so,
Scott
What years, which model(s) (89DAO, 93DAO, etc.), how many?
I assume they didn't last long hence the title of "trial", were there issues?
I find this thread very interesting, thank you all for keeping it so,
Scott
remat457
Member
I thought that the Speer Gold Dot 38SPL 135gr +P load was specifically designed for the NYPD in use in backup revolvers? That load isn't that old...
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The way the whole 10 round magazine story was told to me was that they were issued with the very first 9mm's but never hit the street. That idea was killed right away.
I also heard that the Beretta slide removal incident happened in training, not on the street. ESU cried and moaned until they got some for test and eval. While doing training with them someone brought up the possibility of the takedown lever getting flipped and the slide pulled off. Apparently they managed to pull it off to a certain degree and killed the Beretta for ESU.
I got both stories from a SGT who spent the mid 90's at the Outdoor Range.
I also heard that the Beretta slide removal incident happened in training, not on the street. ESU cried and moaned until they got some for test and eval. While doing training with them someone brought up the possibility of the takedown lever getting flipped and the slide pulled off. Apparently they managed to pull it off to a certain degree and killed the Beretta for ESU.
I got both stories from a SGT who spent the mid 90's at the Outdoor Range.
Correct. It was jointly developed by Speer & NYPD for use in 1 7/8" bbl M36 and the like. Also good in 4" bbls.
Lex_Ordo
Member
Okay, well the 10 rnd mag cap is correct, and the incident that changed it was the Brooklyn beauty salon shooting, in February 1994.
I found the link, so you guys can read about it and it will explain in detail the change in NYPD policy for the 9mm Semi-auto.
Police to Carry More Rounds For Semiautomatic Weapons - NYTimes.com
I remember it like it was yesterday, and I wasn't hired until 1997.
I found the link, so you guys can read about it and it will explain in detail the change in NYPD policy for the 9mm Semi-auto.
Police to Carry More Rounds For Semiautomatic Weapons - NYTimes.com
I remember it like it was yesterday, and I wasn't hired until 1997.
Lex_Ordo
Member
So, FFwd to 1997 when I was in the Bag. We carried the S&W 5946, or the Glock 19, both with 15 rnd capacities. I remember seeing guys with the Sig, and the Ruger 9mm, but they weren't offered to my class.
The training of the day was based on, "the Semi-auto will malfunction" so the autorized off-duty was the .38 revolver. That mindset remained until 1998 when the next academy class was trained in the new semi-auto off-duties. I don't even know what they were.
Since I never switched to the newly authorized semi-auto off-duty, I am still permitted (as long as I qualify with it) to carry the off-duty revolver. My old partner still does too, and we were hired together.
I am no longer restricted by these parameters. I carry what I want as long as I qualify on it. I do however stay with the City's authorized ammunition, because around the area, everyone else uses it too.
The training of the day was based on, "the Semi-auto will malfunction" so the autorized off-duty was the .38 revolver. That mindset remained until 1998 when the next academy class was trained in the new semi-auto off-duties. I don't even know what they were.
Since I never switched to the newly authorized semi-auto off-duty, I am still permitted (as long as I qualify with it) to carry the off-duty revolver. My old partner still does too, and we were hired together.
I am no longer restricted by these parameters. I carry what I want as long as I qualify on it. I do however stay with the City's authorized ammunition, because around the area, everyone else uses it too.
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That article is flawed in several areas, its sad that the press never gets it right. Many will tell you that Brown & Kelly never wanted the 9mm period and that is 1000% WRONG. It was Dinkins and his minions, who wanted to continue the TEST phase. The PC & First Dep work for the Mayor and had no choice. I got this info FIRST hand and not thru some " I heard it from a friend of a friend". Other parts of the article are half truths also. Its sad that the public never gets the entire story.
Lex_Ordo
Member
It's always the case though isn't it? I don't think I ever read a correctly reported article that I was involved in.
The media doesn't get the story right, so the public doesn't read the real account.
The media doesn't get the story right, so the public doesn't read the real account.
remat457
Member
That's what I thought. So, NYPD can carry j-frames as a BUG? Earlier posts seemed to indicate otherwise. It wouldn't make sense for Speer to develop a load for them if they couldn't...
kbm6893
Member
That might be true, but Kelly has gone on record saying the .38 was more than adequate for police work. I have seen him personally say it. The job always waited until a cop was killed or nearly killed before they did anything? Remember Scott Gadell, the rookie cop shot point blank in the head while fumbling to relaod his revolver one round at a time back in 85 or 86? Speedloaders weren't authorized then. After his death, cops got speedloaders.
PC's are politicians, not cops.
njdet354
Member
10 Round Mags
It was in the Ben Ward days that the 10 round mags were issued for cops for the 5946,G19 & 226. They were used for awhile until Bratton took over city PD. Remember Ben Ward was carring a G19 when only his protection detail and JTTF were authorized. It was also at that time ball ammo was being used. That caused a bunch of problems. They didn't want the 9mm's. But had to allow them since Bratton was Transit chief and allowed 9mm's with hollow points.
It was in the Ben Ward days that the 10 round mags were issued for cops for the 5946,G19 & 226. They were used for awhile until Bratton took over city PD. Remember Ben Ward was carring a G19 when only his protection detail and JTTF were authorized. It was also at that time ball ammo was being used. That caused a bunch of problems. They didn't want the 9mm's. But had to allow them since Bratton was Transit chief and allowed 9mm's with hollow points.
Only cops authorized to carry revolvers for off-duty can carry them. Basically that is cops who were hired in 1987(?) or before who did not transition to the semi-auto for off-duty use, or who have special dispensation. I could be wrong, but it is my recollection/understanding that the driving force behind the new round was NYPD, not Speer. But with a department with 35,000 (give or take) sworn officers, it was probably worth Speer's while to cooperate, especially if the NYPD used it's 9mm purchasing leverage to get Speer to develop the .38 Spcl short barrel round. Also, at the time the round came out there were many more off-duty (and on-duty) revolver qualified officers (many of whom have since retired or moved on to greener pastures).
njdet, can you advise where you got this from? Are you a NJ Detective, as your screen name implies? Believe me, I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing match, but I'm a MOS and have been for 29 years. I came on when McGuire was Commissioner. Oh, and I was on the PC's detail at one time. You are correct, that Wards detail was the first to carry the Glock, but no one and I mean no one carried issued 10 round MAGS in Glocks or Smiths. As stated earlier, some early Ruger test guns had 10 rounders. 10 rounders were a thought in someones mind that never came to fruition.
Transit had hollowpoints for a while and we wre still carrying ball ammo.
For the MOS on this forum, I'm an 874XXX.
Perpster Sir, you are correct. I believe '87 was when the job transitioned to DAO spurless hammer guns. I think Stainless came at that time (not sure of stainless date) We called the Spurless guns the Yearwood edition, after the the PO who accidentially shot a perp with his cocked Model 10, while holding him on a train platform in the Bronx or upper Manhattan. Very sad, he came on with me, I do not believe he was prosecuted, but he did loose the job.
NYPD wanted the round, it was our idea and we collaborated with Speer and as you know, it is an awesome round. One of the few things the JOB done right.
kbm6893
Member
What is this Ben Ward talk? When did Ben Ward leave the PD, 1989? Ray Kelly was PC in 1992 under Dinkins, then Bratton came in with Mayor Guiliani. Guilani and Bratton didn't get along because Guiliani didn't like being upstaged by a true cop like Bratton, and Bratton didn't take Guiliani's crap. Bratton was replaced by Safir, who was then replaced again by Kerik. Kerik took advantage of his 9/11 fame even though he did nothing but make speeches, and he left with Guiliani. Mayor Bloomberg had Kelly come back and he is still PC. Transit cops didn't get Glocks until Bratton was their dept chief. NYPD cops weren't carrying 5946's or SIG 226's until 1993, and Ward was definetely gone by then.
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