NYPD Off-Duty Question

njdet, can you advise where you got this from? Are you a NJ Detective, as your screen name implies? Believe me, I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing match, but I'm a MOS and have been for 29 years. I came on when McGuire was Commissioner. Oh, and I was on the PC's detail at one time. You are correct, that Wards detail was the first to carry the Glock, but no one and I mean no one carried issued 10 round MAGS in Glocks or Smiths. As stated earlier, some early Ruger test guns had 10 rounders. 10 rounders were a thought in someones mind that never came to fruition.

Transit had hollowpoints for a while and we wre still carrying ball ammo.

For the MOS on this forum, I'm an 874XXX.

Ultra45, I think you may be incorrect. I recall seeing cops assigned to the hiring detail back in 1993 carrying S&W 5946's. The were pct. cops who got them just beofe that class went in. Since the recruit class on 1993 was given 10 round mags that were only changed to 15 round mags just before that recruit class graduated in March of 1994, some guys were carrying 10 round S&W 5946's. And Transit only had Glocks, so it couldn;t have been them
 
Ultra45, I think you may be incorrect. I recall seeing cops assigned to the hiring detail back in 1993 carrying S&W 5946's. The were pct. cops who got them just beofe that class went in. Since the recruit class on 1993 was given 10 round mags that were only changed to 15 round mags just before that recruit class graduated in March of 1994, some guys were carrying 10 round S&W 5946's. And Transit only had Glocks, so it couldn;t have been them

I had aG-19 in 1990, In Aug of 92 I transfered to another command. I turned in my G-19 and was told I would get it back once at my new command, as they were one of the ones that had Glocks. Well, several weeks later and Kelly is now the PC. Patrol needs the guns and I'm out of luck. Several months later 9mms are in, Glock and Smith are approved, but equip. section has no 5946's yet. I wanted a 5946. I was told that other than the ES, I could get one from a S & W distributor (not dealer). S&W didn't want regular dealers getting the 5946's with mag disconects and selling them to the public. I got mine from Standard Law in Nassau County, had it checked at Rodmans Neck and was good to go. Several in my command followed suit. I already had 9mm training with the Glock, so I didn't need to do the training.

Again, regarding 10 rounders....There were NONE (smith, glock, sig)on Patrol. Please post your source...and not a friend of a friend or cousin. If you weren't OTJ with 1st hand knowledge or have an Intrim Order I'd like to know where the collective is getting this.

I'm trying to post relevant true info as requested, I don't profess to know everything about this job of mine, but I have been around the block a few times.
 
I know if you were hired after Jan 1st, 1994 you cannot carry a revolver as a duty weapon in the NYPD. If is also my understanding that even if you were carrying a revolver prior to the above date and later qualified with an auto, you cannot go back to carrying the revolver as a duty weapon.

My question is if you were to be hired by the NYPD at present can you carry a revolver as an off-duty weapon even though your duty weapon is an auto? Or is the approved off-duty revolvers on the list only for the guys carrying revolvers on duty?

Thanks

Although the discussion of what these large departments "issue," authorize or forbid is interesting from an academic point of view, it should be noted that most of these larger departments are years, and in some cases, decades behind the learning curve on weapons, and it is nice that hobbyists are not bound by the sometimes silly rules put forth by the firearms people in some of these places. Most of the rules are for the convenience of the armorer, for uniformity or for other reasons unrelated to practical use or usefulness of the individual weapons and ammo. In a surprising number of cases, the rules are the result of political pressure by busy-bodies with no knowledge of firearms or ammunition. One example of this was NYPD's initial requirement that 9mm ammo be ball ammo, which, as even a "duffer" knows, lacks stopping power and is over-penetrative, resulting in increased chance of harming an innocent bystander, thus increasing the likelihood of litigation against the department. A hollow point is less likely to over penetrate and more likely to stop an adversary, but, improperly labeled a "dum-dum" is announced by morons as "inhumane" or some drivel, thus driving a department to cave into pressure not to adopt the more effective round. New Jersey has the same problem related to ammo and its requirement that "civilians" not be permitted the safer hollow point ammo. Truly bizarre.
 
Although the discussion of what these large departments "issue," authorize or forbid is interesting from an academic point of view, it should be noted that most of these larger departments are years, and in some cases, decades behind the learning curve on weapons, and it is nice that hobbyists are not bound by the sometimes silly rules put forth by the firearms people in some of these places. Most of the rules are for the convenience of the armorer, for uniformity or for other reasons unrelated to practical use or usefulness of the individual weapons and ammo. In a surprising number of cases, the rules are the result of political pressure by busy-bodies with no knowledge of firearms or ammunition. One example of this was NYPD's initial requirement that 9mm ammo be ball ammo, which, as even a "duffer" knows, lacks stopping power and is over-penetrative, resulting in increased chance of harming an innocent bystander, thus increasing the likelihood of litigation against the department. A hollow point is less likely to over penetrate and more likely to stop an adversary, but, improperly labeled a "dum-dum" is announced by morons as "inhumane" or some drivel, thus driving a department to cave into pressure not to adopt the more effective round. New Jersey has the same problem related to ammo and its requirement that "civilians" not be permitted the safer hollow point ammo. Truly bizarre.

All of that, is of course, quite true. Still, because the limits exist, its enjoyable to discuss them and figure out their ins and outs.

I've worked for several different departments on a full-time basis in two different states over the course of my police career, and I've never had a choice of duty weapons at any of them. I provide my own duty weapon at my part-time department, and there I am free to choose just about anything serviceable (my choice being a M&P45 with a 37-2 as a BUG).

The department I work for full-time now issues several different weapons depending on assignment, but for those of us in uniform (as I am), we are limited to the Beretta 96FS in .40 S&W. While I enjoy Beretta 92 series 9mm pistols quite a bit, that enjoyment does not extend to the .40 S&W 96. I find it unpleasant to shoot, significantly less accurate than the 92 series, and nowhere near as unfailingly reliable as the 92FS is in my experience. In addition to that, the guns are 13+ years old and reaching the end of their service life, night sights are dead, finish is heavily worn, slide/frame rails are worn, etc. The 9x series of pistols was not designed for the increased recoil of the .40S&W and it shows. We were supposed to be getting new weapons, but I'm not sure that idea has survived the current budget situation. I'd happily carry most of the handguns NYPD currently approves, including a NY1 model 64, before I'd choose to carry the Beretta 96. I'd probably select the 5946 out of the currently authorized list if I had the choice. While NYPD may well not do some things right, they are at least ahead of every department I have ever worked for when it comes to leeway in selecting a duty weapon.

Can an active LEO from another state carry hollow point ammo in NJ ?

There seems to be a lot of debate on that one. While I have no plans to visit New Jersey (seen it, can't think of any reason to go back), if I should ever find myself having to visit, I'd be carrying a large bore handgun loaded with FMJ or LSWC ammunition, just to be sure I don't run afoul of the law.
 
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Can an active LEO from another state carry hollow point ammo in NJ ?
My hunch would be that if on official department business hollow points would be ok. I'd be hesitant to carry them when off duty though. Why, oh why, is NJ the one state that bans them? Don't they realize it protects innocent bystanders and helps limit the number of shots required, all else being equal, to stop a bad guy??
 
njdet, can you advise where you got this from? Are you a NJ Detective, as your screen name implies? Believe me, I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing match, but I'm a MOS and have been for 29 years. I came on when McGuire was Commissioner. Oh, and I was on the PC's detail at one time. You are correct, that Wards detail was the first to carry the Glock, but no one and I mean no one carried issued 10 round MAGS in Glocks or Smiths. As stated earlier, some early Ruger test guns had 10 rounders. 10 rounders were a thought in someones mind that never came to fruition.

Transit had hollowpoints for a while and we wre still carrying ball ammo.

For the MOS on this forum, I'm an 874XXX.
874xxx? Holy Cow! How have you not aged out yet???
 
Perpster Sir, you are correct. I believe '87 was when the job transitioned to DAO spurless hammer guns. I think Stainless came at that time (not sure of stainless date) We called the Spurless guns the Yearwood edition, after the the PO who accidentially shot a perp with his cocked Model 10, while holding him on a train platform in the Bronx or upper Manhattan. Very sad, he came on with me, I do not believe he was prosecuted, but he did loose the job.

NYPD wanted the round, it was our idea and we collaborated with Speer and as you know, it is an awesome round. One of the few things the JOB done right.
IIRC, Marvin was holding a lightbulb thief at gunpoint with the hammer cocked. Yes, very sad situation. Shortly afterward there was an IO barring cocking, followed by the mandatory spurless DAO crop of revolvers, followed by the introduction of the 9mm's.
 
I had aG-19 in 1990, In Aug of 92 I transfered to another command. I turned in my G-19 and was told I would get it back once at my new command, as they were one of the ones that had Glocks. Well, several weeks later and Kelly is now the PC. Patrol needs the guns and I'm out of luck. Several months later 9mms are in, Glock and Smith are approved, but equip. section has no 5946's yet. I wanted a 5946. I was told that other than the ES, I could get one from a S & W distributor (not dealer). S&W didn't want regular dealers getting the 5946's with mag disconects and selling them to the public. I got mine from Standard Law in Nassau County, had it checked at Rodmans Neck and was good to go. Several in my command followed suit. I already had 9mm training with the Glock, so I didn't need to do the training.

Again, regarding 10 rounders....There were NONE (smith, glock, sig)on Patrol. Please post your source...and not a friend of a friend or cousin. If you weren't OTJ with 1st hand knowledge or have an Intrim Order I'd like to know where the collective is getting this.

I'm trying to post relevant true info as requested, I don't profess to know everything about this job of mine, but I have been around the block a few times.

No proof, it's just that I am a gun enthusiast and distinctly recall seeing S&W 5946's at the hiring detail back in August of 1993. The 15 round mags weren't authorized until Feb of 1994. Kelly did not authorize them while serving under Dinkins. When Guiliani came on and appointed Bratton, they quickly authorized 15 round mags for the about to graduate recruit class. Until then, we trained with 10 round mags. They were stamped "NY 10" on the bottom. Are you saying that you were carrying 15 round mags in your 5946 prior to 1994, while Kelly was still the PC under Dinkins?
 
No proof, it's just that I am a gun enthusiast and distinctly recall seeing S&W 5946's at the hiring detail back in August of 1993. The 15 round mags weren't authorized until Feb of 1994. Kelly did not authorize them while serving under Dinkins. When Guiliani came on and appointed Bratton, they quickly authorized 15 round mags for the about to graduate recruit class. Until then, we trained with 10 round mags. They were stamped "NY 10" on the bottom. Are you saying that you were carrying 15 round mags in your 5946 prior to 1994, while Kelly was still the PC under Dinkins?

Yes, I carried 15 rounds in the G-19 in 1990 and then with the 5946. Thanks for qualifing your status. This thread was stated to get REAL answers to some forum members questions. I am glad to help, with the FACTS, I don't ..can't understand your problem with this. I am not hearing this 2nd or 3rd party. Evidently back in 93 you got it wrong. It is what it is.....
 
Although the discussion of what these large departments "issue," authorize or forbid is interesting from an academic point of view, it should be noted that most of these larger departments are years, and in some cases, decades behind the learning curve on weapons, and it is nice that hobbyists are not bound by the sometimes silly rules put forth by the firearms people in some of these places. Most of the rules are for the convenience of the armorer, for uniformity or for other reasons unrelated to practical use or usefulness of the individual weapons and ammo. In a surprising number of cases, the rules are the result of political pressure by busy-bodies with no knowledge of firearms or ammunition. One example of this was NYPD's initial requirement that 9mm ammo be ball ammo, which, as even a "duffer" knows, lacks stopping power and is over-penetrative, resulting in increased chance of harming an innocent bystander, thus increasing the likelihood of litigation against the department. A hollow point is less likely to over penetrate and more likely to stop an adversary, but, improperly labeled a "dum-dum" is announced by morons as "inhumane" or some drivel, thus driving a department to cave into pressure not to adopt the more effective round. New Jersey has the same problem related to ammo and its requirement that "civilians" not be permitted the safer hollow point ammo. Truly bizarre.

+1000

Shawn you are so right. I never understood why the city, who are afraid of their own shadows & being sued, let us carry ball ammo for so long. The over pentration of the 9mm round is a big concern of mine, even today. In fact,one of the first shootings in Staten Island I believe, had a Narco boss discharge (accidently)his G-19. The round passed thru a wall & door almost hitting a woman holding her dog. One would have thought the policy would change, but NOOOOO.
 
9191xx, April 1997; Trained in the following:

S&W 5946, 9mm Parabellum, 15 rnd mags x's 3
S&W 640 & 640-2 .38 Spl., 5 shot revolver

Service Pistol was either S&W 5946 or Glock 19.

Off-Duty was either S&W 640, or Ruger (I can't remember which one SPNY?)

First ammo, was the Winchester 9mm Ball 115gr.
Then I was assigned to TB, and carried a different HP round. (I don't remember which since it was so short lived) Then the Job as a whole went to the Speer GDHP 124Gr.

.38 was Federal NYCLAD SWC 158gr, then a NYCLAD HP.

This is what I recall up through 2001.
 
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Any of you former NYPD MOS have a copy of the Commissioner's memo declaring YOUR high-cap (over 10 round) semi-auto pistol mags "contraband" and advising they must be either turned in or destroyed?

If so, please PM me with a copy.
 
Any of you former NYPD MOS have a copy of the Commissioner's memo declaring YOUR high-cap (over 10 round) semi-auto pistol mags "contraband" and advising they must be either turned in or destroyed?

If so, please PM me with a copy.

Cap, you mean from the license div? to retirees?
 
OMG, how could one question turn into all this ? Do have my original 1984 Patrol Guide cover if anyone is interested.We were told you would not be able to collect a pension when we were hired, if you did not have this one paper when retiring. Hence still have mine and pension- I guess I won.
 
OMG, how could one question turn into all this ? Do have my original 1984 Patrol Guide cover if anyone is interested.We were told you would not be able to collect a pension when we were hired, if you did not have this one paper when retiring. Hence still have mine and pension- I guess I won.
Was it the paper cover or the blue plastic binder? Either way, I do remember that threat of no pension without it. And then they never even asked for it back after putting the tin in the mold and throwing the tin in a box like it was nothing but a . . . piece of tin!
 
I know we're geting off topic, but my tin was just thrown in a coffee can. No mold, no nothing. Then when I went to turn in my helmet, the guy at the range in 1PP, said, "wow, you hit lotto!"
The rest was history, but anyway for the topic's purpose, does anyone have a list of what the authorized weapons are now?
Service and off-duty?
 
Yes, I carried 15 rounds in the G-19 in 1990 and then with the 5946. Thanks for qualifing your status. This thread was stated to get REAL answers to some forum members questions. I am glad to help, with the FACTS, I don't ..can't understand your problem with this. I am not hearing this 2nd or 3rd party. Evidently back in 93 you got it wrong. It is what it is.....



Sorry, Ultra, but I did not get it wrong. Since you had a Glock before the city PD had them, and you said you were in the mayoral detail, you obviously had 15 round mags in your weapon. The first NYPD class (not transit) trained with 9MM's was in August of 1993. I know because I was in that class. We had a choice of Glock 19, SIG 226, or S&W 5946. The guns were literally authorized about a week before we went in. As a matter of fact, the equiptment list we receieved from APD with the items needed and money order amounts, still had "revolver" listed on it, and we had to cross it out and fill in the appropriate amount depending on which weapon we chose. We had 10 round mags which were stamped "NY10" to make it easy to be inspected at roll call (as if a SGT ever did that). I don't doubt that you had 15 round mags, and I don't doubt that you had a 5946. Obviously, you would know what you carried, but it is also obvious that those very first guys with the 9MM S&W 5946's must have had 15 round mags, since that was the transition period for 9MM's. Between 8/93 and 2/94, 10 round mags were the only ones issued to new officers. If older officers were allowed to keep their 15 round mags during that time, I am surpised, since the only reason we HAD 10 round mags was Dinkins was trying to clam down the usual Fat Al Sharpton types that didn't want "trigger happy cops" spraying rounds all over the place.
 
Bottomline...There were NEVER any 10 round mags issued for patrol. The STREET! The only exception were the Ruger test guns.
 
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