PC guns use MIM parts now?

[Yogi619]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking through these pages for a long time, and when looking for the perfect revolver (for me), I picked up a 627 V-Comp from the Performance Center line.

I was under the impression that the PC shop didn't use any MIM parts in their guns. To me, I thought that was a big selling point, and the reason why I bought fro the PC shop instead of from maybe the Pro line, or even the regular production line.

However, I had a small problem with my hammer rubbing my frame, and sent an email to customer service to see if this was abnormal, and what to do about it. I was told this in response...

"The guns today take MIM parts. This means that they are poured into a mold and cast and when they cool they will warp a little. The marketing and Engineering Dept have approved these parts. Your gun is in specs. If you wish to send it in, please go to our website and fill out the FedEd shipping label to send the firearm in for service"

I went on to explain that I was under the impression that the PC guns used non-MIM parts, and again asked him to clarify this for me. In return I was told...

"Some models are and some are not. If they create a model and they only have MIM parts, then that is what they get. They no longer have the machines to make the older parts. If they still have an inventory then thats what they use. When the stockroom is empty, then the MIM parts come out. They don't advertise what parts are in their guns and the customer assumes because it says PC that is what they are getting".

Is this true? If so, how long has it been true? I'm starting to feel that I've been duped by S&W, and I paid too much for a supposedly hand fitted forged parts, when apparently they are nothing more than expensive production models.

 

[Stukaman]

Yeah I agree that sucks, for the money I expect the forged parts. Though I have no real problem with MIM parts myself.

 

[Yogi619]

I don't either. I really don't have a dog in the MIM fight. However, the wording of that email sounds like S&W is letting us, the customer, assume that there are forged parts, instead of setting the record straight. It looks like I made an a** out of myself when I assumed. I guess I'll take it as a lesson.

 

[lhump1961]

I am no expert but I will offer the following opine...

-MIM parts are just as strong as forged.
-MIM parts are more consistent in their production therefore requiring less "fitting" to achieve a consistent result...less labor costs.
-MIM parts are cheaper to produce.

Given that most gun buyers look at price first it is hard to blame S&W for doing whatever they can to compete. Smith could continue the old traditions and still sell guns but they would be marketing to a much smaller demographic...they have always been a gun maker for the masses and MIM is what they have to do to continue to offer guns at prices most people will pay. Continuing to use forged parts would price them out of the every day buyers market.

I understand the reverence for guns made in the old order of things...I love my older, pre-lock revolvers...but I also understand the need for cost cutting. All manufacturers of all guns (production guns) as well as other industries use MIM parts...not really a choice. JMHO.

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

"The guns today take MIM parts. This means that they are poured into a mold and cast and when they cool they will warp a little.

This is wrong, mim is dimensionally better as a finished product. It's not poured and it doesn't warp. All parts require fitting to some degree, even the forged. The forged stuff just takes a lot more fitting. Someone didn't do their job fitting the hammer.

 

[lhump1961]

Yeah I agree that sucks, for the money I expect the forged parts. Though I have no real problem with MIM parts myself.

For the money I would expect better fit regardless of MIM vs. forged. I only have one PC gun...a recently purchased Shorty 40mk3. I can tell the difference in the fit and finish of the slide and frame (among other improvements) over my 6904 or my 3913TSW...nothing wrong with either of my 9's but the Shorty is extra nice...that is what I would expect from a PC gun...but that is just me. You have to be happy with it so keep after S&W until you're satisfied.

 

[WickedSharp]

FWIW, I have seen forged hammers rub frames too.
I would guess that MIM parts probably make it harder to see the scratches.

 

[s&wchad]

Up until a year or two ago, S&W specified forged triggers and hammers for PC revolvers on their website product pages. I noticed that they stopped touting it a while back after someone on the forum brought it up. I have my doubts about using old stock, because the change to MIM coincided with the change from a hammer nose to a frame mounted firing pin. As far as I know, regular production centerfire revolvers never had a forged hammer that accommodates the frame mounted pin.

MIM works just fine, but it was a feature that set the PC revolvers apart. Don't feel cheated, PC guns are still made on dedicated machinery by their best people and have features that you can't get in regular production guns. Which PC gun did you buy?

 

[Yogi619]

I bought a 627 V-Comp, probably about 3 years ago. I had to look far and wide to find an all stainless model, and had my dealer order one from somewhere in New England when I was stationed in Florida.

I'm 99% positive that my hammer is forged, not MIM, and performs as advertised, even if the fitting is somewhat off. For that reason, I'm not too butt hurt. However, when I'm told that parts are hand fitted, and I'm paying a premium for them to be, I generally expect them to live up to the hype that S&W claims.

The part that takes me aback is that this particular customer service agent basically states that they let the customers continue to assume that they're getting a premium/different material. He also says that they don't advertise the actual building materials, which I have always been told is "Lying by omission".

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

This is the reason I stick to pre lock S&W's.Even 50-60 year old Revolvers are smoother than the new PC stuff.I figure if they are still around today and smooth as silk they will outlast me and keep on going.They just don't build them like they used to could not be more true for Smith's.I would rather take a chance on a used pre lock smith than take the same chance with a new Smith.

 

[Dave T]

I have 3 PC revolvers and all have MIM hammers and triggers. I don't like it but wanted the features the PC models offered so I bought them (used) in spite of the inferior (in my opinion) parts.

You guys can keep telling yourselves Metal Injected Moulding is superior to forged steel if you want to but that doesn't make it so. I have a good friend I've known for over 30 years who is an engineering physicist and who designs parts that go into the military's missiles and into space. He knows materials and their properties, including metals. When he hears someone claim that MIM parts are superior to forged steel he just shakes his head and laughs at the very idea.

Dave

 

[DCWilson]

I believe some PC hammers and triggers are flash chromed, which produces a finish that resembles the surface of MIM parts. I wouldn't doubt that some PC parts are MIM, but as long as the gun has the fit and finish I expect from the PC, I don't care.

I have two PC 627s that I bought in 2011; I believe their hammers are flash chromed. My three largest revolvers with known MIM parts (a 460, a 500, and a 629-6) have actions as smooth and buttery as anything in one of my classic prewar S&Ws. The simple fact is you can get a mutt or a purebred today, and you could have picked up a mutt or a purebred over half a century ago. Unless you get to inspect the specific gun you are buying before you put your money down, you take your chances.

 

[Hapworth]

I have a good friend I've known for over 30 years who is an engineering physicist and who designs parts that go into the military's missiles and into space. He knows materials and their properties, including metals. When he hears someone claim that MIM parts are superior to forged steel he just shakes his head and laughs at the very idea.

Does he do the same when someone says MIM is functionally comparable to forged?

Would he post the scientific rationale for is decision? Or would you?

 

[Yogi619]

I'm not trying to throw my own thread off to far, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this. MIM is basically suspending metal powder into a medium (wax as an example) so that it can be injected into a mold. The medium is then removed chemically, the remaining metal sintered, and now we have a finished product.

As far as I know, this is the same process used to make high end knife steels (although it's called Powdered Metalurgy by companies like Crucible, instead of MIM). In that respect, I can see MIM at least being an equal to forged steel.

OR, I could be completely wrong, and MIM is more comparable to something like particle board, instead of a solid piece of hardwood.

I'm no metalurgist. Just a geeky aviator.

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

I suppose he does know that MIM turbine blades are already in use then.... Cause we already know cast turbine blades work too. Is MIM superior to cast? Yes. Is it superior to Forged? That's debatable in a cost vs benefit analysis. Strength wise... no its not as strong but then again its not that far off. Powdered metal connecting rods in automotive applications are very strong. Also there a whole lot of alloys out there for from bronze to Titanium and everything in between. You don't gain enough to justify the added costs in most applications other then snobbery.

//rant off

It's a fitting issue not a material issue. PC should do a better job as I said.

OR, I could be completely wrong, and MIM is more comparable to something like particle board, instead of a solid piece of hardwood.

No particle board is basically sawdust suspended in a resin to form a new composite. In MIM the carrier is pretty much eliminated save a few percent from the finished product and the boundary layers of the metal grains form together.
316 stainless sintered (ie powder metal)

a cast 300 series stainless micrograph

 

[Yogi619]

I agree with what BlueOval said. I'm more bothered by the fiting issue, along with the ol' switcheroo that I think Smith pulled. All in all, I use the gun for plinking, and not even very often, so unless the parts are made out of candy canes, I'm sure they'll outlast me.

 

[ken158]

I am no expert but I will offer the following opine...

-MIM parts are just as strong as forged.
-MIM parts are more consistent in their production therefore requiring less "fitting" to achieve a consistent result...less labor costs.
-MIM parts are cheaper to produce.

Given that most gun buyers look at price first it is hard to blame S&W for doing whatever they can to compete. Smith could continue the old traditions and still sell guns but they would be marketing to a much smaller demographic...they have always been a gun maker for the masses and MIM is what they have to do to continue to offer guns at prices most people will pay. Continuing to use forged parts would price them out of the every day buyers market.

I understand the reverence for guns made in the old order of things...I love my older, pre-lock revolvers...but I also understand the need for cost cutting. All manufacturers of all guns (production guns) as well as other industries use MIM parts...not really a choice. JMHO.

Well said... facts are facts and there is nothing the small amount of collectors will do to convince the guys that have to please the share holders to make guns the old fashion way...

 

[TheMystro]

Totally agree. So tired of the "MIM parts art as good" Blah blah blah.....

Well said... facts are facts and there is nothing the small amount of collectors will do to convince the guys that have to please the share holders to make guns the old fashion way...

 

[ladder13]

Same ol' same ol'

 

[Hapworth]

I am no expert but I will offer the following opine...

-MIM parts are just as strong as forged.
-MIM parts are more consistent in their production therefore requiring less "fitting" to achieve a consistent result...less labor costs.
-MIM parts are cheaper to produce.

I believe all to be correct save for the last: MIM parts are actually more expensive to produce (when done properly), but that cost is offset in the long run by your second point, hence why it is ultimately a cost saver.

Forged, cast or MIM -- the bottom line is they have to be done well. If not, any becomes inferior to the rest. Done properly, they will perform largely equally.

 

[S&WIowegan]

I am so sick and tired of this MIM whining I would like to ask the great GORILLA to ban it as a political topic!! Please.

It's not about forged vs MIM, it's about fitting. The problem with the newest guns coming out of S&W is that CNC and MIM parts are so precisely produced the company can essentially assemble and sell without much fitting. This can lead to complaints like hammer rubbing, but believe me hammer rubbing is very common in older Smiths.

I own and shoot several Performance Center guns in competion and they serve me well. Every one of them required expert gunsmith attention to achieve PC levels of performance. No, I did not send them back....I hired a gunsmith/competitive shooter I could trust to do it right.

Remember...S&W had a near death experience in 1999-2000 when the owners cut a deal with Clinton they thought would get them a lot of gubmint contracts. It didn't....they got suckered and the American gun buyers snubbed S&W big time. Virtually all employees moved on. Recently, the co. is making lots of guns and hiring new employees. The key word is NEW....they don't have the old-time fitting and finishing background. These guns are not INFERIOR, just rough around the edges.


PS yogi...when you come to a fork in the road, take it!

 

[DonD]

I am no expert but I will offer the following opine...

-MIM parts are just as strong as forged.
-MIM parts are more consistent in their production therefore requiring less "fitting" to achieve a consistent result...less labor costs.
-MIM parts are cheaper to produce.

Given that most gun buyers look at price first it is hard to blame S&W for doing whatever they can to compete. Smith could continue the old traditions and still sell guns but they would be marketing to a much smaller demographic...they have always been a gun maker for the masses and MIM is what they have to do to continue to offer guns at prices most people will pay. Continuing to use forged parts would price them out of the every day buyers market.

I understand the reverence for guns made in the old order of things...I love my older, pre-lock revolvers...but I also understand the need for cost cutting. All manufacturers of all guns (production guns) as well as other industries use MIM parts...not really a choice. JMHO.

Well written. Change is inevitable, longing for the old ways won't stop it. The reservoir of older guns will eventually dry up and you'll have to buy what is then out there. Personally, short of high end British double barreled elephant rifles, something I wouldn't pay the price for, guns today are the best ever.

You can get factory rifles with .5 MOA guarantees, accuracy that was basically unheard of 30 yrs ago. I love the new stuff S&W builds. Don

 

[DonD]

This is the reason I stick to pre lock S&W's.Even 50-60 year old Revolvers are smoother than the new PC stuff.I figure if they are still around today and smooth as silk they will outlast me and keep on going.They just don't build them like they used to could not be more true for Smith's.I would rather take a chance on a used pre lock smith than take the same chance with a new Smith.

Pretty much leaves you being limited to .38 Specials and a few .357s, many with crude non adjustable sights, I'd hate to have such a restricted menu of choices. Don

 

[Engine49guy]

PC guns should be held to a higher standard because they are an elete product,
If your not happy with your hammer rubbing send it in and have it repaired under warranty like they offered.

Forged parts also can rub and while I prefer forged over MIM my pre lock 686-5 Mountain Gun with MIM Hammer / Trigger and is an excellent revolver.

While I dont think MIM is a big issue I do believe the IL should only be available as an option especially on PC guns,
The factory could simply stop drilling the IL hole and it would save them the costs of unnecessary internal parts.

 

[Yogi619]

I really didn't mean to start a MIM war on this. I was simply offput about these two sentences in particular "When the stockroom is empty, then the MIM parts come out. They don't advertise what parts are in their guns and the customer assumes because it says PC that is what they are getting".

If it is common knowledge at Smith that the customer is assuming wrongly, then why not set the record straight? To me, it sounds like they found a way to use a different product than what the general public believes they're getting, and since that other product is more desireable, chooses not to correct them.

Overall, I'll probably send it back and see what they say. Again, I have no fight in the MIM thing, and my 627 is limited only to plinking duty (The Benelli M4 pretty much takes the place of everything else, including more plinking).

Oh, one last thing... My final email was asking if he could give me a round-about date of when they started using MIM parts in their PC guns, purely out of curiosity, and I never got any response back. I'll more than likely buy another PC gun, even knowing what I know now.

 

[jaymoore]

The likely cause of the hammer rubbing is not due to the hammer but the hammer pivot pin. Very sensitive to alignment it is, and can be thrown off during the assembly process surprisingly easily if care isn't taken. Once the sideplate is on there's the added question of the support given by the recess in the sideplate itself. Positioning, size, etc. Generally there's enough slop that it won't correct the minor misalignment of the pivot pin. So there's a tendency for the hammer to lightly kiss one side or the other. Sometimes even an offset mainspring is all it takes, even with a perfect pivot pin.

Usually there's no functional drama. Just cosmetic. Used to worry me, but anymore I just care how well the thing runs.

BTW, the latest PC in the stable, a TRR8, has one of the best actions I've ever had on a Smith, PC or otherwise. Is there hmmer rub on it? I think so! But they sort of all run together anymore...

 

[BillyWayne]

I recently sent back a PC 327 R8 for severe hammer rub. The gun had forged parts. S&W replaced the forged hammer with a MIM hammer. It works. I have done loads of trigger jobs on S&W revolvers and on average I seem to get a better job on MIM parts. That being said, the best trigger job I have done to date was on forged parts. To me it is in the fitting and fine tuning. Both can be made to work real nice.

 

[guzzi]

You folks should know the MIM technology is deeply employed in the automotive industry. Connecting rods in almost all modern vehicles are MIM as are other parts. The cap and rod end are actually fractured to create the crank pin fit instead of cut in half and machine bored. Does this work for a self defence structure? It is all in the technology...jb

 

[sodacan]

The real gunsmiths at S&W are their accountants and lawyers. MIM parts happened. I don't believe anyone actually likes them, but they're here and not going away. They may be okay, but I not a metallurgist and can't comment on their quality. Being more traditional in my taste for guns, I don't care to own guns that have them. Most of my guns date back to when S&W produced all of their guns to a much higher quality standard, and gunsmiths were artists. If you buy an old S&W revolver and examine it and shoot it, you'll quickly appreciate it for the quality and craftsmanship it exhibits. Unless you're stuck on eight shot cylinders and scandium, consider buying a an old "N" or "K" frame six shooter. They may change your way of thinking. In the case of S&W's PC, the guns may receive a little more attention, but the real reason for its existence is as a marketing ploy and a cash grab. Happy holidays to all. Keep our troops in your thoughts and prayers.

 

[williamlayton]

MIM Parts are good----I also don't like to hear the whinning>
Blessings