Pre-WW II 32 Multi-Cylinders?

[Green Frog]

In a thread about the 32-20 K-frames I made the statement that there were a small number of these combo guns. Does anyone remember seeing mention of such a gun, or better yet have one?

"There have been postings on this forum about people who have pre-WW II K-frame guns that appear to have been built as 32-20 M&Ps or M&P Targets, then had 32 S&W Long cylinders added. If memory serves correctly, at least a couple have been lettered as coming from Springfield that way, but you're dealing with amphibian memory here, so..."

I know the possibility of building such a gun has been discussed a couple of times, because I discussed it myself, but unless I'm conflating what I dreamed of and what other people said they already had, I'm going to say that at least a few of these guns exist. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Froggie

 

[cgt4570]

I don't remember seeing a thread on a dual cylinder factory .32-20/.32 Long Target, but odds are there were probably a small handful. The pre-war K32-Longs were in the same serial number blocks and considered a special order in the .32-20 product line.
As I'm sure you know, there were not many .32-20 Targets produced and even fewer K32-Long Target or or fixed sight .32 M&P's.
I have a new old stock K .32 Long 2" barrel that's been waiting for the right project. I've read that the NYPD approved the K frame fixed sight .32 Long for female officers in the early post-war years.

 

[glowe]

Great question. I just ran across another post from someone named Froggie that said it was true . . . Oh wait . . . ????

I have heard of 32-20 Rugers that had convertible cylinders chambered in 32 HR Mag, but not S&W dual cylinder guns. Can't see why it could not have been done, with the factory fitting two different cylinders at the factory if the buyer wanted one.

 

[Green Frog]

I guess somebody could ask Roy...

Froggie

 

[Green Frog]

Great question. I just ran across another post from someone named Froggie that said it was true . . . Oh wait . . . ????

I have heard of 32-20 Rugers that had convertible cylinders chambered in 32 HR Mag, but not S&W dual cylinder guns. Can't see why it could not have been done, with the factory fitting two different cylinders at the factory if the buyer wanted one.

The Ruger Blackhawk 32 combo gun was a special run made for Buckeye Sports of Ohio soon after the 32 H&R came out. The 32-20 cylinder was dedicated to that caliber while the other (32 H&R) cylinder was of course able to take all the straight wall 32 cases then available. I'm still kicking myself for foolishly selling mine when I'd only had it a few months. Likewise my 16-4 went at the same time... "Ve grow too soon oldt und too late schmardt."

Froggie.

PS If one had a cylinder to add to a Model 16-4 they could rebore it to 32-20. Just sayin'...

 

[Muley Gil]

"...but not S&W dual cylinder guns."

The M25-3 in .45 Colt could have a .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim added to it.

 

[Green Frog]

OK, we know that in post-WWII years Smith has sold multi-cylinder guns, specifically 22s in LR & Mag as well as the 22 Jet and LR, as well as those 45 Colt & ACP guns mentioned above, so the precedent exists. The question on the table is whether they did it pre-War with 32s. I'll say as usual to "never say never," but we need an actual example of such a set to put this question to rest. If there isn't such a beast already, I'll be tempted to add a stainless 32-20 cylinder to Project 616 just so there will be, at least in the custom realm.

Froggie

 

[Jebus35745]

One of the locals as a 16-4 reamed to .327 and had Bowen make a .32-20 and a .32 long cylinder made for the gun. The only reason he didn't shoot .32 long thru the original mag cylinder was chasing a carbon ring. Nice set up, maybe Bill will chime in. Larry

 

[Muley Gil]

I'm still working on my K frame .327 Magnum. I dug out an old .32-20 cylinder and dropped it into my M15 frame. It seems to cycle fine and the length of it and my reamed M16-4 cylinder are real close. I might just have a convertible when I get done.

 

[Green Frog]

I'm still working on my K frame .327 Magnum. I dug out an old .32-20 cylinder and dropped it into my M15 frame. It seems to cycle fine and the length of it and my reamed M16-4 cylinder are real close. I might just have a convertible when I get done.

It's sounding more and more like we need to get together and compare notes. Drop me a PM if you would be interested in getting together at some central location between your home twenty and mine (in Lynchburg.). I'm sitting in the hospital right now with a brand new knee, but the Dr and therapists are saying it's off-the-charts good, so I should be back to my old level of mischief by the end of August. I've got a SS K-frame cylinder in 22 Mag in my reserve box, so it might be possible for me to do that same kind of a dual cylinder set-up with my long-suffering Project 616. I just wish I still had my Buckeye Special 32 combo Blackhawk... now THAT would be a real stud hoss!

Froggie

 

[Jebus35745]

Good luck with the new knee, therapy is your life now. Had both replaced at the same time 1 1/2 yrs ago. Better days are ahead, Larry

 

[Muley Gil]

Will do, Froggie!

 

[oddshooter]

Hey Froggie,

A good buddy at 84 just had knee surgery and came out great. He immediately started moving his entire household and now has added some recovery time. My advice is to take it easy and do some specified physical therapy until all is well.

I'm envious each time I hear you describe your 616, but I take solace in the fact that I have acquired a Ruger Buckeye from a friend, Toroflow. I have built 30 different cartridges for those 2 cylinders so far and having a blast. I grew up with the 32-20, but I am finding the 32 H&Rmag a tremendous caliber.

I have always liked the 32-20's large volume and ability to hot rod with stronger actions. The 32's were just a little too weak for me. Now with the new guns in 32mag easily hitting 1200fps with a 115gr, that makes me grin big time.
I assumed I would be a huge 327 Fed Mag fan, but I have not achieved the accuracy I expected shooting my Ruger Blackhawk 8. I'm still searching for answers to that question.

Prescut

 

[Green Frog]

That's it oddshooter, rub it in! As stated before, I bought the one of the very first of those Buckeye Specials in 32 combo configuration. At the time I was getting involved heavily in single shot rifles and drank the Matthew Quigley kool aid and convinced myself I didn't have much use for a six gun. Big mistake! I now own a variety of 32 handguns including the "Stud Hoss" Blackhawk 327 eight shooter and Project 616 as well as a S&W 32-20 M&P and an Italian SAA copy in 32-20 too, but that one gun would have gone a long way to satisfying my 32 Jones... especially if I were able to have the chambers of the H&R cylinder reamed out to 327.

I've had a couple of DA 32-20s (M&Ps) over the years, one now, but both were sort of marginal in condition and of course lacked adjustable sights. I'm leaning toward adding that cylinder to my Project 616 so I can "have it all" in a Smith DA revolver. That would certainly give me a lot of the same kind of flexibility you have with your BH, but I can see good arguments to go with the modern SA like yours.

It's a shame that I can't make a 32-20 cylinder for the 327 eight shooter, no room for eight of the larger base diameter and a six shot cylinder wouldn't work well with the eight shooter hand. I'd probably be willing to give up the two extra shots on the one to get two different cartridges though!

I need to get with friend Hondo44 on a Ruger venue and talk about possibilities of some sort of dual cylinder SA... I visualize a stainless flat top with 327 and 32-20 cylinders and that classic deep set Micro style sight. I could probably be the only kid on my block to have one of those if I built it!

While I'm recovering from this knee replacement I'll have lots of time to study up and research what can be done both with the 616 and some Ruger to be determined.

Froggie

 

[Hondo44]

I've had a couple of DA 32-20s (M&Ps) over the years, one now, but both were sort of marginal in condition and of course lacked adjustable sights. I'm leaning toward adding that cylinder to my Project 616 so I can "have it all" in a Smith DA revolver. That would certainly give me a lot of the same kind of flexibility you have with your BH, but I can see good arguments to go with the modern SA like yours.

It's a shame that I can't make a 32-20 cylinder for the 327 eight shooter, no room for eight of the larger base diameter and a six shot cylinder wouldn't work well with the eight shooter hand. I'd probably be willing to give up the two extra shots on the one to get two different cartridges though!

I need to get with friend Hondo44 on a Ruger venue and talk about possibilities of some sort of dual cylinder SA... I visualize a stainless flat top with 327 and 32-20 cylinders and that classic deep set Micro style sight. I could probably be the only kid on my block to have one of those if I built it!
Froggie

Froggie,

Hands have quite a bit tolerance. I put an eight shot 22 cyl in my son's K22 and the original 6 shot hand worked fine. If you have to fit a hand, you can reach a happy medium fit that works well with both cyls when going up or down one extra shot or two.

My 6 shot hand in a 586 worked perfectly when I converted to a 5 shot 44 cyl.

In a Ruger 327 8 shot, you can drop down to a 6 shot 32-20 cyl with the 8 shot hand and if it over-travels with the 327 cyl, just shorten the bottom tooth of a six shot Blackhawk hand a slight amount.

A 7 shot 32-20 cyl is a problem; there is no 7 hole cyl made by Ruger to ream to 32-20. It would have to be custom made (read that expensive). However a 6 shot .30 carbine cyl is the way to go.

Ruger's NM .30 Carbine Blackhawk will shoot off the shelf .32-20, no re-chambering needed. If you reload, you can even reload 32-20 in .30 Carbine dies and the case necks will not be worked as much. Use a .32-20 shell holder. There's a difference in bullet diameters, .312" vs. .308" but they shoot with fine accuracy.

The .312" bullets may tend to raise pressure slightly in the smaller .308" barrel diameter although of no consequence in the robust Ruger cyl and way under its max pressure limits. And you may have some leading with lead bullets depending on hardness.

So if you reload you can use .308 bullets in your 32-20s.

Even though the .30 Carbine is a rimless round it's a good thing the NM lets the .30 case head stick out more than just the rim thickness since the .32-20 rim is .016" thicker. But may bind slightly in some revolvers and the rear cyl face just needs a slight facing off.

.32-20 cannot be fired in OM Ruger .30 Carbine cyls as is. The chambers seat the .30 carbine rim flush, so the rimmed 32-20 case head won't fit in the end of the .30 chamber. A simple recess cut in the chambers to the .061" thickness of the .32-20 rim is needed in the OM chambers or facing off the rear of the cylinder .061", will fix that.


But you won't find a stainless cyl. in .30 carbine; I don't believe they were ever made in SS. But you may find an aftermarket stainless cyl with 6 pilot holes drilled that can be reamed to .32-20.

 

[Green Frog]

Froggie,

Hands have quite a bit tolerance. I put an eight shot 22 cyl in my son's K22 and the original 6 shot hand worked fine. If you have to fit a hand, you can reach a happy medium fit that works well with both cyls when going up or down one extra shot or two.

My 6 shot hand in a 586 worked perfectly when I converted to a 5 shot 44 cyl.

In a Ruger 327 8 shot, you can drop down to a 6 shot 32-20 cyl with the 8 shot hand and if it over-travels with the 327 cyl, just shorten the bottom tooth of a six shot Blackhawk hand a slight amount.

A 7 shot 32-20 cyl is a problem; there is no 7 hole cyl made by Ruger to ream to 32-20. It would have to be custom made (read that expensive). However a 6 shot .30 carbine cyl is the way to go.

Ruger's NM .30 Carbine Blackhawk will shoot off the shelf .32-20, no re-chambering needed. If you reload, you can even reload 32-20 in .30 Carbine dies and the case necks will not be worked as much. Use a .32-20 shell holder. There's a difference in bullet diameters, .312" vs. .308" but they shoot with fine accuracy.

The .312" bullets may tend to raise pressure slightly in the smaller .308" barrel diameter although of no consequence in the robust Ruger cyl and way under its max pressure limits. And you may have some leading with lead bullets depending on hardness.

So if you reload you can use .308 bullets in your 32-20s.

Even though the .30 Carbine is a rimless round it's a good thing the NM lets the .30 case head stick out more than just the rim thickness since the .32-20 rim is .016" thicker. But may bind slightly in some revolvers and the rear cyl face just needs a slight facing off.

.32-20 cannot be fired in OM Ruger .30 Carbine cyls as is. The chambers seat the .30 carbine rim flush, so the rimmed 32-20 case head won't fit in the end of the .30 chamber. A simple recess cut in the chambers to the .061" thickness of the .32-20 rim is needed in the OM chambers or facing off the rear of the cylinder .061", will fix that.


But you won't find a stainless cyl. in .30 carbine; I don't believe they were ever made in SS. But you may find an aftermarket stainless cyl with 6 pilot holes drilled that can be reamed to .32-20.

Jim,

I probably ought to take this to a PM or e-mail, but my ultimate flight of fancy on the Ruger BH is to take a mid frame Stainless Flattop and send it to someone like Clements for a caliber change... new barrel (probably 5 1/2" with a .313 groove diameter) and two cylinders, a 32-20 and a 327 FM, throated alike (probably .3135") at a happy medium for both cartridge families. Essentially I would have a stainless FT version of the old Buckeye Combo 32, only with a 327 option as well.

In the words of the philosopher Billy Joel, "All it takes is looks and a whole lot of money!" Actually, having two cylinders cut at the same time such a conversion is being done might save a little time and money due to efficiency of setups, etc.

Getting back to the original concept in this thread, I could make Project 616 "be all that it can be" by simply adding a 32-20 cylinder and making "the gun S&W should have made but didn't" into the one they "could have made but never will!"

Can you imagine having the two guns I've proposed in this post side by side? It may be a drug-induced fantasy from my pain meds kicking in, but other than the dollar factor, I really don't see why it wouldn't work to have both of them. When I put my Bh 327 eight shooter and Project 616 together side by side, the wheels start spinning.

Froggie

 

[Hondo44]

I truly like the SS flat top mid-frame concept for a 327/32-20 convertible. If you start with a convertible frame, Clements will only have to change the cal marking on the frame, it'll already have "CONVERTIBLE" on it.

The 616 and FT would be a great pair, just lots'a dollars. But what is money for??? Better get them started while still on the pain meds?

 

[oddshooter]

Gentlemen,
I have acquired an extra 32-20 cylinder from a Ruger Buckeye convertible. I am working out my options.

Are you guys saying I can put that in my Ruger Blackhawk 8 327. With only small adjustments?

 

[mikepriwer]

The factory did make, in the 32-20 serial number series, several very small groups of revolvers chambered in 32 long. Some of the known serial number ranges are in the 43000's, and in the 61000's. I have a pair of 4" targets in the 43000 group, and Jim Fisher has a single 4" target in the 61000 range. There is another group around 54000 or so, and one of the guns is a 4" M&P. I've posted pictures of my two guns, and can post them again. They are sequentially serial-numbered.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[mikepriwer]

Here are the two K-32's serial numbered in the 32-20 series.

Regards, Mike Priwer