Red Dot Optics on Combat Pistols?

YkcorCal

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Red Dot Optics on Combat Pistols and/or Carry Handguns?

What is your opinion and experience?

There is a 30 minute video on YouTube under the title "Red Dot Optics on Combat Pistols | Tactical Rifleman" if you are interested in a detailed explanation on this subject.
 
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I think they have proven any doubts people had. Yes, they can break but it is rare. Yes, they can become blurry in a little bit of rain, but there are ways around it. I believe in five years they will be on 90% of law enforcement pistols.
 
NO TIME

Yk: I'm figuring a civilian defense shooting will be at such a close range & under such personal pressure, you won't have the time to look for a dot whether it's a holographic or dot on the target. Too much time lost looking for the dot. IMO, point-shooting is realistically more of a productive practice.
Hank M.
 
Yk: I'm figuring a civilian defense shooting will be at such a close range & under such personal pressure, you won't have the time to look for a dot whether it's a holographic or dot on the target. Too much time lost looking for the dot. IMO, point-shooting is realistically more of a productive practice.
Hank M.

For much up close and personal self-defense point shooting like "quick kill" as the U.S. Army taught us is quite effective but I believe that can still be used with a Red Dot on your gun available for those times when ranges are more extended. Whether it is a red dot, or a laser, or the best iron sights made they all have their uses and limitations. How many people have truly taken the time to learn/develop true point or instinctive shooting skills to the point they should be before using them in an actual gun fight? :)
 
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Yk: I'm figuring a civilian defense shooting will be at such a close range & under such personal pressure, you won't have the time to look for a dot whether it's a holographic or dot on the target. Too much time lost looking for the dot. IMO, point-shooting is realistically more of a productive practice.
Hank M.

RDS do not stop one from point shooting effectively. At such close ranges even iron sights are of little use. One can point shoot effectively with no sights whatsoever on a handgun.

However, at any range where iron sights can be used, so can a dot, only faster and with greater allowance for misalignment of sights while still getting good combat hits.

The human eye cannot focus on more than one distant object at a time. It will naturally default to focusing on the threat, not the iron sights. The dot appears anywhere in the window and is applied to the focused threat without shifting focus to front and back iron sights. This simplifies and speeds up combat sighting, reducing the need to shift focus between three focal planes to the only one that matters.

There is no need to “hunt” for the dot if one can consistently present a handgun with sights aligned. If one cannot do this, iron sights need “hunting” also. Aligned iron sights = dot visible in window. Sighted combat speed requires natural alignment that comes from training, lots of reps at home from the holster, etc. Anything less than this for fast sighted firing requires luck rather than skill.

An RDS is not a talisman that makes one a better shooter with no effort. With the proper effort, it is a proven, reliable, quick and easy to use system. Trained professionals, including Mil & LEO, are adapting to them and almost never return to irons, except as backups. I have found I shoot irons a little better now because of red dot training.

I have RMR’s on my main carry M&P 1.0 9mm full size; an RMR on each of a Glock 17 & 19; and a Shield optic on my Shield 1.0 9mm. I have been shooting them for almost five years now. It took some adjustment and effort to get good with them, but shooting fast and combat accurately is much easier for me now, especially with eyesight that no longer can focus well or quickly on iron sights. I have RDS on my carbines also, so shooting a dot is definitely no big deal for me.
 

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I have a Glock 17 Gen 5 MOS that I use in GSSF matches. For me, I am finding my RDS to be more of a handicap than an asset. I find that I am constantly hunting for the red dot, since I don't have suppressor height sights on it, so the irons and dot aren't co-witnessed. Perhaps if I put taller sights on it, I might shoot the Glock better when I use the red dot.

As I am currently set up, I am shooting the red dot about 30 seconds slower than I do with irons on the same exact course of fire!

Until I can consistently acquire my target and turn in better times with the RDS than the irons, I'll bank on rely on iron sights for a defensive pistol!
 
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Everyone has their own opinion about "gadgetry". And you know what they say about opinions.

The FACT is street cops in South Central LA have a long waiting list to go through the Department's transition course and carry it.

At any distance past spitting distance the red dot offers an advantage as far as ability to focus on both the threat and the aiming point. Simple fact.
 
Chances are if you’re actually in an armed confrontation, it’ll happen so fast and at such close range you won’t be looking at your sights, you’ll be focused on the immediate threat; likely the perps hands and or weapon.
You’ll be in fight or flight mode.
 
I have a Holosun red dot on my Glock 19 which I don't carry, but keep at the bedside. I love it, because it's motion sensitive and turns on when you pick it up. I've got it set up to co-witness the iron sights if for some reason the red dot doesn't come on. I really like it. It does require a special holster to accommodate the red dot, if I want to carry it, which I don't have yet. Shooting it at the range, I find with my old eyes that target acquisition is faster and accuracy is improved.
 
I have red dots on all my competition guns where allowed. But for carry guns, I would rather have iron sights. Since the eyes aren't what they used to be, I'm slowly replacing all the iron sights on my carry guns to fiber optic so they show up much better.
 
In most cases, a properly mounted, quality RDS is viable for a combat pistol. It is almost always the shooter who cannot transition to the modern sighting system that is the problem.

Mechanically, if one can align irons quickly, one can shoot a dot, but irons should be co-witnessed through the lower 25% of the dot window. Initially, with fast and natural irons alignment, one keeps the RDS off, ignores the window, and just lines up and shoots iron sights. Not having co-witnessed irons is a liability many new RDS shooters cannot overcome, but it is a set up fault, not an RDS fault. Shooting a RDS without co-witnessed irons is like shooting irons without a rear sight.

When this gun presentation toward the target with aligned iron sights is consistent and fast, turn on the dot. It will be right above the front sight aligned with the rear (First picture). There is no “hunting”. There is no loss in speed. With cowitnessed iron sights, either sight system can be used and will be just as fast.

As the shooter transitions from the aligned irons, which require focus on multiple planes, to seeing the dot while focused only on the target, the irons disappear. The dot system becomes faster. One does not focus on the dot in the window but on the target with dot overlaid onto it. Single plane of focus: on the threat.

Next the shooter checks the miracle of the RDS: with the dot in a corner but applied to the desired Point of Impact on the target, fire the shot. It will hit as desired, right at the dot.

Now look again and notice the alignment of the iron sights when the dot is in the corner of the window. They appear at first not to be aligned in the traditional sense, but in truth they are aligned pointed at the same corner of the window where the dot is (picture #2). If you tired to shoot the irons alone with this alignment you wouldn’t shoot until they were more closely aligned in a traditional fashion. That takes time and focus away from the target.

One learns to trust the dot. Because of this significantly greater latitude in “sight alignment”, i. e., being able to use the whole window and still get good hits, red dots are going to be faster than aligning irons. But you have to have irons to train for the transition, and then for back ups if the RDS fails.

Inside of 7 yards if you can see your threat/target in the window, your handgun will be pointed close enough to get a combat hit without irons or dot, although they likely would be there, even aligned, but it is even faster to use the whole window as your sight. This is modified point shooting to a bit of an extended range.

RDS off, shoot irons fast and well? RDS on, shoot dot faster and better. This is especially true if your vision cannot focus sharply on the front sight or transition between focal planes quickly.

Once familiar with the system, smaller dots (3-4 MoA) are more precise, especially at distances beyond 10 yards than large dots (7-8 MoA). I had one large dot RMR and I soon replaced it with a smaller dot. With presentation practice, finding the dot is not a problem. Really.

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It does require a special holster to accommodate the red dot, if I want to carry it, which I don't have yet. Shooting it at the range, I find with my old eyes that target acquisition is faster and accuracy is improved.

Yes, a RDS may need a special holster. They are commonly available for popular platforms, usually at a $5 up charge. That’s because the holster receives a simple cut to allow for the front ledge of sight. RDS fit many holsters without modification.
 

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Yk: I'm figuring a civilian defense shooting will be at such a close range & under such personal pressure, you won't have the time to look for a dot whether it's a holographic or dot on the target. Too much time lost looking for the dot. IMO, point-shooting is realistically more of a productive practice.
Hank M.

Also a good quote: "Chances are if you’re actually in an armed confrontation, it’ll happen so fast and at such close range you won’t be looking at your sights, you’ll be focused on the immediate threat; likely the perps hands and or weapon.
You’ll be in fight or flight mode."

I know a guy who was known to 'carry'. He was pulling out of his plumbing supply yard in his big Jeep when two young men ripped open his door (while car was moving), yanked him outta the car and simply stole his gun right out of his holster. The car was eventually stopped by the normal city traffic.

I'm of the OPINION that a civilian situation will be very CLOSE (and a wise person would have the ability to flee) thus eliminating the need for gadgetry. For playing with various targets etc.; I use them to my pure delight.
IMHO as always,
J.
 
While I haven't tried one yet, I'm not opposed to them at all. I've been thinking of buying one of the SCCYs that come with a red dot mounted just to try them out. The gun with red dot costs less than a high end red dot alone, so why not. I don't really see an argument against them, most sound like the argument the laser haters try and make. That somehow having one decreases your skills or options without using it. You can still point shoot with or without either, so it just comes down to preference IMO.
 
Everyone has their own opinion about "gadgetry". And you know what they say about opinions.

The FACT is street cops in South Central LA have a long waiting list to go through the Department's transition course and carry it.

At any distance past spitting distance the red dot offers an advantage as far as ability to focus on both the threat and the aiming point. Simple fact.

Looks much like an opinion.
 
Make your decisions by following statistical averages. Five-shot .38 snubbie will win every average fight, with no sights. Preferably a concealed or bobbed hammer so it can be drawn easily from the pocket you dropped it in heading out the door.

No need to train or practice as you will just point and shoot because the range is so close.

No need for a reload because you will only fire 2.5 shots.

No gadgets.

KISS. You win. All other guns and gadgets are a waste and will not improve your chances in the average gunfight.

Do I have that right?
 
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