Reloaded ammunition for Self Defense.

Why not just make the issue of using hand loads verses factory ammo a non-issue and carry what your State Police carry? They run many tests for that ammo to make sure it is the best to use in defensive situations. Chances are you will carry it for a year, practice with it at the range, then replace it with the current SP carry ammo.
 
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For me, it's not a 'liability' thing. It's a 'reliability' thing. I believe that good factory ammo is statistically much more reliable than my reloads...even though my reloads very rarely fail. Quality factory ammo is subject to quality control processes that very few of us use on our work benches. At least I know I don't. When I imagine my gun going "click" instead of "bang" when I need it the most, it makes it very hard to take anybody seriously when they say "it doesn't matter".

I just had 3 rare FTFs out of 5000 small pistol primers. That's just not good enough to stake my life on.
 
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My defense handguns are the “only” firearms we own that have ever used “factory ammo”! Yes I’m paranoid! While to my knowledge, using “hand-loaded” ammunition in a self-defense situation has never been used against anyone....I don’t want to be the first! With our corrupt judicial system.....it’d only a matter of time before some *** prosecuting attorney attempts it! memtb
 
I am certainly NOT disparaging Ayoob or anyone else on this matter.

I do believe Ayoob has good advice and experience in certain areas however as with all advice and experience.....it usually only comes from one or a few perspectives......and Ayoob cant possible have experience in all of them.

He may have had an experience with a case where reloads was an issue and thus his advice makes sense....after all if you can afford to reload you surely can afford $20 on a box of factory ammo.

At the end of the day what a few of us have said stands.....a good shoot....is a good shoot.

Ayoob is an interesting writer and was a really good IPSC shooter back in the day, but his imagination got the better of him. Where you find the best information on liability in SD situations comes from state wrongful death appellate cases where the issue of the instrument or proportionality of force used to apply deadly force was an issue on the appeal. Good luck finding one - I never have, nor have I heard of one. Doesn't mean one might not exist in a dusty corner somewhere.
 
.380

I carry a Beretta 85 and it shoots great with factory stuff. Hornady Critical Defense and Sig Saur 95 gr FMJ shoot better than my reloads. Wish I could duplicate them. Then Id only use reloads. And I alternate them in my magazine CD, FMJ CD ,FMJ etc. All shoot point of aim.
 
My defense handguns are the “only” firearms we own that have ever used “factory ammo”! Yes I’m paranoid! While to my knowledge, using “hand-loaded” ammunition in a self-defense situation has never been used against anyone....I don’t want to be the first! With our corrupt judicial system.....it’d only a matter of time before some *** prosecuting attorney attempts it! memtb

The Zimmerman case prosecutor made mention of Zimmerman using those terrible killer hollow points, being factory ammo and all. So that stretch of prosecutorial imagination has already been traveled.

It really doesn't matter what ammo one uses. If the prosecutor wants to make an issue of it, the prosecutor will make an issue of it.
 
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There is no such thing as an exemplar sample of the ammunition you may have used.

Sure each box will be similar... but the thing is what will prevent the lab techs who shoot each round say something like "ammo in box was tampered with, results not conclusive"

And you CANT call the ammo company up,,, because each lot date is loaded differently from every other one. They can and DO use a different powder in each lot, and adjust the loading with each cargo container of powder that comes in.

Ammo companies save samples from each lot.
 
"Why not just make the issue of using hand loads verses factory ammo a non-issue and carry what your State Police carry?"

And be labeled a WannabeCop?
 
There is a reason juries are made up of non-lawyer citizens drawn from the community. For the same reason, the JURY is the "tryor of fact" not the Judge, nor the lawyers. THEIR job is to present the case, the defense, explain the law, and the judge instructs the jury.

While lawyers will absolutely attempt any and all forms of misdirection, obfuscation, and blatant chicanery to draw the jury into some technical rabbit hole, juries by and large have an uncanny ability to see through it all and more often than not render the correct verdict. Trying to go to FAR down the techno-babble rabbit hole is as likely to backfire as to succeed. Just ask Marsha Clark.

I carry "personal loads" and freely admit it. The reason is because here in California all ammo transfers must go through a licensed "vendor" - including online orders. This is no big deal for those who order in bulk, but not everybody can or wants to order by the case for expensive "defensive" ammo and as long as I want to conform my choices to what everyone else decides I should have, certainly I can trot down to the local big box store and by 9mm, .40, and .45 auto...and sometimes even half-way decent .38 Special though for the last YEAR Sportsman's has only carried a rather limited selection. Then there is the fact that my chosen carry caliber isn't any of those.

I used to carry a FiveseveN in 5.7x28 exclusively. Since factory ammo is deliberately neutered, I would buy online when the price was right - like when PSA was selling American Eagle for $15 a box of 50, pull the bullets, then reload them with a more suitable powder charge to kick up the velocity from 1,650fps to around 1,950fps. I would also substitute alternative bullet choices for the FMJ bullets, though there is a lot to be said for FMJ in a high-velocity .22 bottleneck round! When the State cut mail order to home sales I was stuck with the choice of buying the same ammo for $30/50 which isn't a desirable option, so naturally I just dug into my supply of once-fired brass and started rolling from scratch. My current "bulk" load is the Speer 40gr. Spire Point over AA7 powder for very close to 2,000 fps. I like the dense lead core much better for use against large, dangerous animals as opposed to the frangible Vmax style bullet. The Speer bullet has a thick jacket made for 3,000fps speed, and sharply tapered nose which makes it ideal for the modern urban jungle. This type of ammo cannot be purchased it must be built.

Over the last year or so I've transitioned to the .22 TCM and .22 TCM9R as well as developed the 5.56x24. I have an assortment of handguns including Glocks, CZ and RIA chambered to accept this round and baseline performance is greatly superior to factory 5.7x28, and about 100fps faster than custom loaded 5.7x28. My basic SD load is the Speer 40gr. SP in the 5.56x24 case clocking 2,015fps from a 4.5" Glock or CZ barrel. Since the bullets finally became available I've also create a stock of .22TCM9R using the Armscor 39gr. JHP bullet with the short nose and total jacket coverage.

I choose to carry these guns can cartridges instead of the conventional choices because they provide low recoil, extremely fast-shooting with little muzzle disturbance, accurate fire to 150 yards with no hold-over should it be needed, and the ability to punch through thicker sheet steel and plate than any of the "big three", as well as a high probability of defeating Kevlar - the wearing of which seems to be on the rise among criminals and maniacs.

As long as my choices are used DEFENSIVELY there isn't a single argument that can be made that they are inherently "worse" than any other caliber, and if someone goes "offensive" with ANY caliber, chances are they're going to be hung out to dry.
 

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If the question ever comes up, I can demonstrate being within published data for my reloading practices.

No problem I can see.


That would get you absolutely no place


"Oh so you claim to be a "expert" handloader"? "Please prove that the round that killed the Mr Smith was not a over powered killer load":rolleyes:


Blah blah blah
 
For me, it's not a 'liability' thing. It's a 'reliability' thing. I believe that good factory ammo is statistically much more reliable than my reloads...even though my reloads very rarely fail. Quality factory ammo is subject to quality control processes that very few of us use on our work benches. At least I know I don't. When I imagine my gun going "click" instead of "bang" when I need it the most, it makes it very hard to take anybody seriously when they say "it doesn't matter".

I just had 3 rare FTFs out of 5000 small pistol primers. That's just not good enough to stake my life on.

That's an interesting perspective. One that I don't happen to share.

My cousin Jeff worked as a police officer and inspected each round he was issued. It was a pain as the police chief at the time didn't like guns and officers were issued 18 rounds - 6 in the revolver and 6 in each dump pouch. This was the late 1970s and a decade after the Newhall shooting, so the fact they had to use dump pouches spoke volumes. If you begged you could get 2 extra rounds as the dump pouches would hold 7, and it was almost guaranteed you'd drop a round reloading under stress.

Consequently, when he found a round with a flaw getting a replacement was a pain, but he still persisted. (He also carried a S&W 36 as an unauthorized backup.)

His experience with flaws in factory ammo convinced me that factory ammo quality isn't what it's made out to be. It eventually convinced him to start his own company and his QA staff are ruthless when it comes to ensuring what goes out the door is as near to perfect as possible.

That insistence on quality is why BHA won't ever be a big company, as they still maintain that commitment to quality, even when they've got about 2 years worth of back orders.

His factory ammo I trust, everyone else? I can handload better ammo myself.

I have full control how the primer is handled to ensure no contamination. I have the same control over the powder, and I velocity test each lot of powder I use to get the optimum charge for the desired velocity. I can hand inspect each case and hand weigh and inspect each bullet and ensure that all the components are precisely assembled.

The end result is that I've never had a failure with a hand loaded self defense round.
 
To be clear, Ayoob was a ressrve/part-time cop in a village of 3000 people (dangerous, crime-filled Grantham, NH).

Part of Ayoob's job was to be an authority. But even experts can be wrong. And please pardon me, but I've seen video clips of Ayoob and he comes off as someone who loves to talk.

I'll use my own handloads mainly because of cost and I'm a handloader. Always have been.
 
That's an interesting perspective. One that I don't happen to share.

My cousin Jeff worked as a police officer and inspected each round he was issued. It was a pain as the police chief at the time didn't like guns and officers were issued 18 rounds - 6 in the revolver and 6 in each dump pouch. This was the late 1970s and a decade after the Newhall shooting, so the fact they had to use dump pouches spoke volumes. If you begged you could get 2 extra rounds as the dump pouches would hold 7, and it was almost guaranteed you'd drop a round reloading under stress.

Consequently, when he found a round with a flaw getting a replacement was a pain, but he still persisted. (He also carried a S&W 36 as an unauthorized backup.)

His experience with flaws in factory ammo convinced me that factory ammo quality isn't what it's made out to be. It eventually convinced him to start his own company and his QA staff are ruthless when it comes to ensuring what goes out the door is as near to perfect as possible.

That insistence on quality is why BHA won't ever be a big company, as they still maintain that commitment to quality, even when they've got about 2 years worth of back orders.

His factory ammo I trust, everyone else? I can handload better ammo myself.

I have full control how the primer is handled to ensure no contamination. I have the same control over the powder, and I velocity test each lot of powder I use to get the optimum charge for the desired velocity. I can hand inspect each case and hand weigh and inspect each bullet and ensure that all the components are precisely assembled.

The end result is that I've never had a failure with a hand loaded self defense round.
If I carried a semi-auto every round would get cycled through the action before being loaded to carry.
 
I'm surprised this thread only has 35 posts, usually this topic is pretty "fiesty". I first started reading reloading forums in 2006 and this subject was "hot" then and has carried on ever since, and there has never been a consensus reached, ever. I find it hard to believe one "expert" can sway the opinion of so many thousands of reloaders, especially when not one person has come up with a viable example of a prosecutor going after "extra deadly handloads", not even in CA...
 
I’m not a handloader. Nor do I care about Ayoob’s opinion on the subject-I’ve read the raging threads for years also and kinda don’t care about the litigation subject anymore. I just carry a factory load because there isn’t a need for me to think very much about it.
 
That would get you absolutely no place


"Oh so you claim to be a "expert" handloader"? "Please prove that the round that killed the Mr Smith was not a over powered killer load":rolleyes:


Blah blah blah

He would not have to; it would be the prosecutor's duty to prove it was an over-powered killer load.
 
Part of Ayoob's job was to be an authority. But even experts can be wrong. And please pardon me, but I've seen video clips of Ayoob and he comes off as someone who loves to talk.

We are in complete agreement. Ayoob is utterly without any credibility with me except in teaching some firearms techniques. Part-time police, indeed...in most states reserves and part-timers can't even serve warrants (Texas being an exception).
 
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I carry the ammo I reload. I guess I should knock on wood. Never had a misfire or squib in my handguns. Had a misfire in a rifle once. It was due to a broken spring. Not the ammos fault.
Hopefully I will never have to use any against a human being.
 
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