Revolvers and Ammo Consealed Carry

[oldiesradio1560]

How many rounds do you carry?

 

[Old cop]

One speed strip plus two speed loaders in the car for my 340PD.

 

[BAM-BAM]

In the Burbs of the Burgh...... 3913 7+1 and a spare mag.

up gun to a PC Shorty9 (6906) 12+1 and a spare 15rd magazine w/ +2 adapter or 915 at 17+1 plus 17


Revolvers have been woods guns since the early 90s........... 1-2 speedloaders +P .38 and or .357 and a 12 round ammo wallet.

 

[haywood]

Normal day, Two J-Frames and Two Speed Loaders.

 

[eb07]

Either an SL variant speedloader or one speed strip with 4 rounds so a total of 9 or 10. That's it.

If I feel the need to go in an area where 10 rounds or less makes me uncomfortable I grab the Glock 26 with a 22 round ETS backup mag.

 

[NYlakesider]

A Ruger LCR.38 with one speed strip for casual carry. Very small and very easy to conceal in any kind of weather.

Going to the city Or "if something is going on" a Springfield XDs .45 with one extra mag will be on me.

If a situation is occurring that looks real bad I will drop back to my customized series 70.45 Gold Cup with a couple spare mags. I carried this for years in the metropolitan area.

Always a speed strip in the glove compartment and a Xds mag and If I had the GC there would be a a couple extra mags close.

 

[Rpg]

On a day to day basis in the city and burbs, I carry a Colt Commander with 8 rounds of 45 acp (I'm not enamored of 8 round magazines). Less frequently, a M38.

I don't carry a reload: if I can't solve a sd problem with what's in the gun, more ammo isn't going to help. I don't entertain zombie fantasies.

Unless you plan on missing a lot, I can't imagine a real life sd situation that would call for more ammo than what's in the gun.

 

[silversnake]

Depends on the outfit and the environment. If I can carry a couple of reloads and a BUG I'll do it, if all I can conceal is a pistol and no reloads I still consider that better than nothing.

 

[BB57]

Normally, I'll carry a 686+, and a speed strip. The odds are overwhelming that I'll never need it, but it's flat, light and easy to carry. It makes me feel better - and it's my version of a fidget spinner.

I also practice with a speed loader, and carry one on rare occasions, just for fun. However, speed loaders tend to be bulky, even small ones like the HKS, and even when carried in a slip over carrier that reduces the profile. I practice with one large because I enjoy the challenge of maxing out pistol qualification courses with a revolver. It makes the hi cap pistol guys grumpy when you beat them with a revolver, and that's called "fun".

Reloads in the real world.

In terms of real world self defense, it's hard to overlook the reality that 95% of all self defense shoots involve 5 rounds or less in 5 seconds or less. In fact the FBI found based on 12 years of agent involved shoots that 75% of all shoots occurred at 3 yards or less with 3 rounds or less fired in 3 seconds or less.

The truth is unless you are incredibly unlucky, you just are not going to need a reload, even with a 5 shot revolver. The probability of even being in a self defense shoot is very low (and even lower if you're using common sense and good situational awareness), and in the event that low probability occurs the odds are only 1 in 20 that you'd need more than 5 rounds.

I know... you're probably not buying this argument because all the tacti-cool-done-time-downrange instructors talk about the need for high capacity pistols, reloads, multiple magazines, etc - including the recent NRA self defense programs.

Let's look at the numbers....

Based on FBI data, in any given year there are only around 300 justifiable homicides involving armed citizens. That sounds low, but it compares to about 400 each year by law enforcement officers, which actually makes the armed citizen total pretty significant - they are facing and shooting threats at fully 3/4 the the rate of police officers.

Bear in mind however that it's estimated that roughly 40% of law abiding adults in the US own a firearm (which would be around 96 million gun owners), compared to about 120,000 federal and 680,000 state and local full time police officers in the US (800,000 total). That 96 million is very rough as it is very hard to get accurate numbers on gun ownership, since we don't require registration (thank God) and many people, particularly women, won't disclose that they own a gun in a poll or survey. We do know there were 11.1 million people with concealed carry permits in 2014, and while we don't know how many of those actively conceal carry, it's safe to say they own a gun.

The number of assailants killed however is a very misleading as the number of times an armed citizen uses a handgun in self defense is estimated at between 65,000 and 80,000 times per year - with a significant number of these probably never being reported to the police.

That suggests the assailant is shot and killed only about .5% of the time when a gun is used in self defense. That's not all that surprising however as even bad guys don't like to get shot, and producing a gun ha s profound psychological effect on an assailant, particularly when they were not expecting the potential victim to be armed.

Estimates vary, but it's believed that producing a gun is sufficient to stop an assailant in about 70% to 95% of instances where a gun is brandished in self defense.

If you carry a high capacity semi-auto and a pair of spare magazines, you're probably not going to like this...

Based on the most conservative numbers up above, you have only a .00083% probability of drawing your handgun in self defense in any given year. If you have to draw it in self defense the probability you will have to shoot it only .30, and if you fire, the probability is only .05 that you'll need more than 5 rounds in the engagement.

In summary, this year the probabilities for us average armed citizens are:

0.00083 (0.083%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.000249 (0.0249%)that we'll need to fire; and
.00001245 (0.002145%) that we'll need to reload.

In other words, the need for a reload in an armed citizen self defense shoot exists in just 1 in approximately 80,000 self defense shoots.

Even if we only consider the 11.1 million concealed carry permit holders, the numbers look like this:

0.0072 (0.72%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.00216 (0.216%)that we'll need to fire; and
.000108 (0.0108%) that we'll need to reload.

That's a reload needed in just 1 in 10,000 armed citizen self defense shoots.

Training and EDC implications

If you want to train for that incredibly low probability event, and carry a high capacity semi-auto with 2 spare magazine to be ready for that extremely low probability event - by all means knock yourself out.

But be realistic and honest enough to admit that you're prepping for some sort of post apocalyptic zombie scenario or maybe a mall ninja terrorist scenario, rather than a real world need.

There are more productive areas to spend your training time and dollars. I'd much rather see shooters shooting often, and working on:

- developing a consistent grip that facilitates automatic alignment of the rear sight with the front sight as you draw and present the weapon;
- developing an ingrained habit of verifying the rear sight alignment in slow fire, and at speed, verifying the placement of the front blade on target and relying on the grip o take care of rear sight alignment (the whole process becomes incredibly fast once the grip is properly developed and makes accurate self defense shooting and decent bullet placement possible);
- drawing and shooting from concealment; and
-developing the footwork needed to draw and shoot while moving laterally, or to the rear, toward cover.

All of the above will make you far more effective in a gun fight than practicing a reload you'll (for all practical purposes) never need.

Besides, rather than wasting training dollars on this in a class, you can practice a reload by doing a tactical reload every time you load your handgun, rather than doing an administrative reload. What do I mean? If you feel you want to carry a speed strip or speed loader, use the speed strip or speed loader, every time you load your revolver. Over weeks, months and years, doing this under time pressure, you'll develop the muscle memory to load pretty effectively under fire if the need ever arises.

You can also do it at the range and find what works best for you and your particular revolver - the FBI reload, the Universal Reload, or the Stress Fire reload. A google search will educate you on the differences, and the pros and cons of each.

If you carry a semi-auto pistol, there's some justification for carrying a spare magazine even if you'll never need the extra rounds. In the event you get a mis-feed, any jam that is not resolved with a quick tap-rack-bang immediate action is probably best addressed by dropping the magazining, clearing the weapon and inserting your spare magazine.

However, the idea that you might get a misfeed is based largely on what happens in a practical pistol match or range session where you're shooting maybe 300 rounds of cast bullet reloads cranked off you progressive press without cleaning your pistol. A failure to feed is a lot more likely in that scenario than it is with your recently cleaned self defense pistols shooting high quality self defense rounds that you've tested for reliability (at least 200 rounds down range without a failure).

If you're expecting a failure to feed with your self defense pistol and ammunition, you're clearly carrying the wrong pistol and/or ammunition.

 

[eb07]

Good data. You cannot prepare for everything. For most applications, you should have brought a rifle. That being said, just carrying a serviceable firearm filled with modern self defense hollow points that you are proficient with gives you a leg up on most of the population in terms of self defense.

That being said, a 5 shot snub is more than enough unless I am venturing into a place that I feel uncomfortable.

I live rural. In a low crime area.I do not feel the need or desire to carry my hicaps.

I also follow the 4S rule:

I avoid: Stupid people, doing Stupid things, and/or going to Stupid places, at Stupid times.


The 442 or Bulldog work just fine for me.

 

[bigwheelzip]

A double HKS carrier with 686+ speedloaders or moonclips.

 

[springer99]

Whatever the gun holds. I got enough other **** in my pockets.

 

[silversnake]

Normally, I'll carry a 686+, and a speed strip. The odds are overwhelming that I'll never need it, but it's flat, light and easy to carry. It makes me feel better - and it's my version of a fidget spinner.

I also practice with a speed loader, and carry one on rare occasions, just for fun. However, speed loaders tend to be bulky, even small ones like the HKS, and even when carried in a slip over carrier that reduces the profile. I practice with one large because I enjoy the challenge of maxing out pistol qualification courses with a revolver. It makes the hi cap pistol guys grumpy when you beat them with a revolver, and that's called "fun".

Reloads in the real world.

In terms of real world self defense, it's hard to overlook the reality that 95% of all self defense shoots involve 5 rounds or less in 5 seconds or less. In fact the FBI found based on 12 years of agent involved shoots that 75% of all shoots occurred at 3 yards or less with 3 rounds or less fired in 3 seconds or less.

The truth is unless you are incredibly unlucky, you just are not going to need a reload, even with a 5 shot revolver. The probability of even being in a self defense shoot is very low (and even lower if you're using common sense and good situational awareness), and in the event that low probability occurs the odds are only 1 in 20 that you'd need more than 5 rounds.

I know... you're probably not buying this argument because all the tacti-cool-done-time-downrange instructors talk about the need for high capacity pistols, reloads, multiple magazines, etc - including the recent NRA self defense programs.

Let's look at the numbers....

Based on FBI data, in any given year there are only around 300 justifiable homicides involving armed citizens. That sounds low, but it compares to about 400 each year by law enforcement officers, which actually makes the armed citizen total pretty significant - they are facing and shooting threats at fully 3/4 the the rate of police officers.

Bear in mind however that it's estimated that roughly 40% of law abiding adults in the US own a firearm (which would be around 96 million gun owners), compared to about 120,000 federal and 680,000 state and local full time police officers in the US (800,000 total). That 96 million is very rough as it is very hard to get accurate numbers on gun ownership, since we don't require registration (thank God) and many people, particularly women, won't disclose that they own a gun in a poll or survey. We do know there were 11.1 million people with concealed carry permits in 2014, and while we don't know how many of those actively conceal carry, it's safe to say they own a gun.

The number of assailants killed however is a very misleading as the number of times an armed citizen uses a handgun in self defense is estimated at between 65,000 and 80,000 times per year - with a significant number of these probably never being reported to the police.

That suggests the assailant is shot and killed only about .5% of the time when a gun is used in self defense. That's not all that surprising however as even bad guys don't like to get shot, and producing a gun ha s profound psychological effect on an assailant, particularly when they were not expecting the potential victim to be armed.

Estimates vary, but it's believed that producing a gun is sufficient to stop an assailant in about 70% to 95% of instances where a gun is brandished in self defense.

If you carry a high capacity semi-auto and a pair of spare magazines, you're probably not going to like this...

Based on the most conservative numbers up above, you have only a .00083% probability of drawing your handgun in self defense in any given year. If you have to draw it in self defense the probability you will have to shoot it only .30, and if you fire, the probability is only .05 that you'll need more than 5 rounds in the engagement.

In summary, this year the probabilities for us average armed citizens are:

0.00083 (0.083%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.000249 (0.0249%)that we'll need to fire; and
.00001245 (0.002145%) that we'll need to reload.

In other words, the need for a reload in an armed citizen self defense shoot exists in just 1 in approximately 80,000 self defense shoots.

Even if we only consider the 11.1 million concealed carry permit holders, the numbers look like this:

0.0072 (0.72%) that we'll need to draw your gun in self defense;
0.00216 (0.216%)that we'll need to fire; and
.000108 (0.0108%) that we'll need to reload.

That's a reload needed in just 1 in 10,000 armed citizen self defense shoots.

Training and EDC implications

If you want to train for that incredibly low probability event, and carry a high capacity semi-auto with 2 spare magazine to be ready for that extremely low probability event - by all means knock yourself out.

But be realistic and honest enough to admit that you're prepping for some sort of post apocalyptic zombie scenario or maybe a mall ninja terrorist scenario, rather than a real world need.

There are more productive areas to spend your training time and dollars. I'd much rather see shooters shooting often, and working on:

- developing a consistent grip that facilitates automatic alignment of the rear sight with the front sight as you draw and present the weapon;
- developing an ingrained habit of verifying the rear sight alignment in slow fire, and at speed, verifying the placement of the front blade on target and relying on the grip o take care of rear sight alignment (the whole process becomes incredibly fast once the grip is properly developed and makes accurate self defense shooting and decent bullet placement possible);
- drawing and shooting from concealment; and
-developing the footwork needed to draw and shoot while moving laterally, or to the rear, toward cover.

All of the above will make you far more effective in a gun fight than practicing a reload you'll (for all practical purposes) never need.

Besides, rather than wasting training dollars on this in a class, you can practice a reload by doing a tactical reload every time you load your handgun, rather than doing an administrative reload. What do I mean? If you feel you want to carry a speed strip or speed loader, use the speed strip or speed loader, every time you load your revolver. Over weeks, months and years, doing this under time pressure, you'll develop the muscle memory to load pretty effectively under fire if the need ever arises.

You can also do it at the range and find what works best for you and your particular revolver - the FBI reload, the Universal Reload, or the Stress Fire reload. A google search will educate you on the differences, and the pros and cons of each.

If you carry a semi-auto pistol, there's some justification for carrying a spare magazine even if you'll never need the extra rounds. In the event you get a mis-feed, any jam that is not resolved with a quick tap-rack-bang immediate action is probably best addressed by dropping the magazining, clearing the weapon and inserting your spare magazine.

However, the idea that you might get a misfeed is based largely on what happens in a practical pistol match or range session where you're shooting maybe 300 rounds of cast bullet reloads cranked off you progressive press without cleaning your pistol. A failure to feed is a lot more likely in that scenario than it is with your recently cleaned self defense pistols shooting high quality self defense rounds that you've tested for reliability (at least 200 rounds down range without a failure).

If you're expecting a failure to feed with your self defense pistol and ammunition, you're clearly carrying the wrong pistol and/or ammunition.

This is sound advice. If you taught a course on concealed carry or defensive shooting in my area I'd take it.

 

[Det-Sog]

Good data. You cannot prepare for everything. For most applications, you should have brought a rifle.

I also follow the 4S rule:

I avoid: Stupid people, doing Stupid things, and/or going to Stupid places, at Stupid times.


The 442 or Bulldog work just fine for me.

This. I live in a very warm climate and don't dress around the gun. I have a pocket carried PD 340 with 5 x 357.. I might have a speed strip on me, with at least two speed loaders in the car.

I'm not a cop anymore, so I just stay away from the areas where I feel like I need a hi-cap on me.

 

[Cal44]

I usually carry either a M49 5 shot J frame, or a 431PD 6 shot 32 H&R Magnum.

In either case, I carry one speed strip for a reload.

I agree with the thinking that a reload is rarely needed, but since a single speed strip weighs nothing and is easily concealed, I figure why not carry one?

 

[Walkingwolf]

How many rounds do you carry?

As many as I can get in my little red wagon, and pull behind me.

Honestly depends, if I am using belt loops, and/or speed loaders. Usually I carry two reloads, but two belts have loops so that adds an extra 12 rounds.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Typically, 15 rounds, 5 in my 642 and a pair of 5-round speedloaders in JOX pouches on my belt. On rare occasion I carry my gun and a speed strip with 4 rounds if, for whatever reason, I can't wear my usual attire.

I fully agree that having to use my gun in self defense is very unlikely, and even more unlikely to need a reload. At the same time, if needing to use a gun in self defense is so rare, why carry at all? Because there's no telling who is going to be the outlier, or when/where it will happen. It's like insurance: You don't want anything to happen, you don't expect anything to happen, but if something does happen you want to be prepared for it.

For the most part, it's all about playing the odds. Some people will want to stack the odds in their favor as much as possible by carrying a double-stack gun with 2 spare magazines, a back-up gun, a reload for the back-up gun, a pair of knives, a pair of flashlights, and a trauma kit. If someone wants to carry that much gear and is comfortable with it, and it doesn't impede their life, then more power to them. I'm satisfied with carrying my snub because it's sufficient for the most likely of improbable situations. I carry a reload because if I am unfortunate enough to have to fire in self defense, I don't want to wait for the police with an empty or nearly empty gun. Average 911 response times in my town are around 9 minutes. I carry 2 reloads for two reasons: 1) I'm anticipating the likelihood that if I do have to fire in self defense I'm likely to have shaky hands from the effects of the fight-or-flight response and may end up dropping my reload, so if that happens I'd rather just reach for a second reload from my belt and get my gun loaded than to look for my dropped speedloader; and 2) I carry my reloads behind my left hip (I use the deBethencourt reload method, it's also consistent with how I've been trained to reload with semi-autos) and I've found that my cover shirt tends to "drape" better over 2 speedloaders and print less than 1 reload, if that makes sense.* I also have contingency plans that I practice in the event that what I have ends up being insufficient (Contingency Plan Alpha: Run away screaming like a little girl ). More importantly, for me, carrying a gun and 2 speedloaders in this manner is very convenient and comfortable for me, so I have no issues with it. Not everyone will share the same opinion, and that's fine. Everybody has different needs, situations, circumstances, etc.

I do practice reloads using snap caps as part of my dry fire routine, mostly because I want to be able to do them as smooth and fumble-free as possible, not get lightning quick reloads. I have to admit, it's also a fun exercise for me. However, I don't practice them that often as I prefer to prioritize my practice time on more important skills, like drawing from concealment. I'd say for every minute I practice reloads, I probably spend 5-10 minutes practicing the draw. And of course, practicing reloads at the range when you run out of ammo is a good idea. Occasionally, I'll also practice one-handed reloads and malfunction clearance drills (yes, revolvers can malfunction, so it's a good idea to know how to correct them if possible or carry on without a functioning gun if it's not possible). I don't practice tactical reloads with revolvers as I believe it's impractical with a higher likelihood of fumbling. I just dump whatever's in my cylinder and reload. Reloads-with-retention is do-able with semi-auto magazines, but I see tactical reloads as an attempt to juggle while under stress. Just my opinion, based on my own experiences.

Apologies for yet another novel. Sometimes I swear I don't know what the word "concise" means.



* Apologies for the run-on sentence from hell.

 

[Ashlander]

6 rounds in a Kimber K6s and a 8 round speed strip.

 

[Lostaro]

5 in gun (442 or 36) 5 in a speed strip.......

Full size revolver in vehicle vault with 4 speed loaders of 38+p...

If I'm expecting trouble....I stay home

 

[iPac]

For most quick runs and casual get togethers, I carry this with the 6 rounds it holds, nothing more. If I feel like more might be needed, I throw a speedloader in my pocket for an extra reload. The odds of having to shoot over a dozen rounds is very slim, and I don't even worry about it.