Robbery Scenario: What to do?

[QED]

Move slowly away from the robber as he has his gun pointed at a clerk, as long as he doesn't tell you to stop moving away. Look for a nearby cover of some kind. If the intent is only robbery he probably won't mind you moving somewhat away. If he tells you to stop, stop until he is focused on the clerk again -- and then run and get behind nearby cover and be ready to fire IF he comes after you. He probably doesn't expect to be fired upon so any kind of a hit or perhaps even a miss is likely to scare him off. As others have stated, you are not a cop and just robbery(even armed) is NOT a good or valid reason to start shooting anyone.

 

[RSanch111]

Sing "Bohemian Rhapsody" and when you have their attention, run away.

 

[steelslaver]

So many variables in this. Just the way the store is setup as far as cover and visibility could chance everything.
A big difference that many have mentioned is your locality. Yes, a good part of it is state laws, another is local sentiment. In Montana if you shot a guy holding a gun on a clerk, you would be fine as long as you only shot the robber. First there is state law and then there is the fact that any prosecutor around here would know that going after you would cost him the next election. In New York, the laws would not favor you. Worse is that the percentage of people who would know much about what happened or pay attention to it would be way lower. The percentage of people who know what the prosecutors response was would be way lower, plus add in a more liberal population and you got problems. There it would be a small blip in the news, unless the press decided to make it a big story and the press is far more apt to have liberal views. Here it would be probably be the most interesting news of the year and a topic of conversation for everyone and the press isn't liberal, and the state has a history of citizens taking care of criminal problems. We have had vigilantes, Granville Stuart etc. Part of the little town I live ins proud history is 2 local bad guys came to town during the 4th of July and started harassing the citizens, the locals gunned them both down in the streets and really celebrated.

Me, I am going to take a serious look at the whole thing, could he see my hands and where my gun is? Can I quickly get outside or behind solid cover? If his gun goes off I want to be able to get mine ASAP as I go for cover. If he shoots the clerk he will probably shoot me too. How hyped up does this guy seem, Meth head looking? Never ever trust one of them to do anything reasonable. I have been in some bad situations and its amazing how much goes through your head in a hurry. I would hope he just takes the money and runs, but, he best be paying attention, because I will be, this is a very serious situation, figure he might pull the trigger at any time and I am going to be looking for the best chance of getting out of it alive. Never been in a gun thing before, but in some very serious situations more than once and to quote the guy in the Magnificent 7 "So far, so good".

To many people have done just what the robber wanted all the time hoping he wouldn't kill them right up till he did. I didn't reluctantly come to the point of deciding to pack a gun around all the time to do that. If I figure I have to do something I am going to take what I figure is my best bet and the law isn't going to be a big part of the calculation. That's the future and this is right now. The law isn't going to save me from getting shot or living if I do. If I live I can deal with that later. The clerk, if I could save him without making my situation worse, I would, just like I would try to save any one in a bad situation, but, I didn't get him the job that put him where he is at. Taking big risks to save people usually just makes things worse.

These type of "what ifs" make you think about things. Thing is you had best give these things some thought. If your packing a gun around and something does happen its a poor time to start without any kind of a plan. Have a plan, have a back up plan, be ready to modify or abandon both of them.

 

[QED]

Sing "Bohemian Rhapsody" and when you have their attention, run away.

Wow, you must have quite a voice. Can you really incapacitate someone by singing?

 

[cmort666]

Can you really incapacitate someone by singing?

I guess you've never heard Yoko Ono and Linda McCartney...

 

[QED]

I guess you've never heard Yoko Ono and Linda McCartney...

Hey, if they were OK with J.L. and P.M. they are just fine with me.

 

[cmort666]

Hey, if they were OK with J.L. and P.M. they are just fine with me.

You seem to be implying that, like Beethoven, McCartney and Lennon were deaf...

 

[Neumann]

You have the right to stop a deadly threat on your person, and in most jurisdictions, a deadly threat against a family member or another person. The key phrase is "stop a threat", not to apprehend or detain someone. Whether the threat is death or serious injury is subject to the "reasonable person" test, which is understandably vague. No witness to an armed robbery is ever out of danger.

Robbery is not about money, it is a violent felony with the threat of deadly force. The robber is prepared to kill anyone who gets in their way, without remorse. It is not his first felony, possibly not even his 50th (average number before getting caught).

If you order someone to "drop the gun" or "freeze," their first reaction will be to turn toward the sound of your voice. At that point the threat is against you, personally. Be prepared!

The best approach I have found to lesser threats is to assume verbal command. Don't engage in a dialog, don't say what you will do. Simply state what they must do, whether "drop the gun" or "move on." Saying you will "call the police" may have the opposite effect on someone up to no good. Anyone who gets that close knows police will take many minutes to arrive, if ever. It tells them you aren't prepared to defend yourself. Keep them guessing.

The best line I heard on TV was directed to the police/actor's partner, "call an ambulance." That was TV. Things on the street are getting real.

 

[dben002]

Some DA MN good advise in this thread..

1st Know the laws in your state concerning lethal defense.

2nd If no one including yourself is in imminent danger you probably are best served doing nothing. Now if the robber is threatening to shoot somebody or does other physical harm to someone .... then that's a different story and will be decided by the courts if you act.

3rd: If the robber does have a gun out and you act..you say nothing..you just act. Hope you have lots of witnesses and store video.

Remember .... in most states unless you are in imminent danger or someone else is... you are on shakey ground using lethal force. Every time you do use lethal force the decisions about what will happen will be made by the DA and the civil attorney the man's family you shot hire........

 

[QED]

You seem to be implying that, like Beethoven, McCartney and Lennon were deaf...

Not at all; lots of very persuasive evidence indicates that their hearing was in no way impaired. In addition, as you know, they sold really lots of records and discs with both Yoko and Linda singing, although probably not as lead singers. So, Yoko and Linda may not have Vikki Carr's or Karen Carpenter's voice, for example -- but they stopped well short of dropping people with their voices. That's not to say that it couldn't be done...

 

[kstud]

I can only give my personal opinion or action for my given state. In my state there's a "duty to retreat" in public places. That sums up exactly what I would have to do to avoid the aftermath of lethal force use.

Some states have the "stand your ground" laws allowing you to basically put down the threat without retreat.

Now if you had asked what happens when robbers enter my home, it'll be a totally different answer due to the "castle" doctrine.

With that said, if you have the funds to afford a good/great lawyer, you'll likely be able to avoid any criminal charges; civil court is another matter all together.

I'll echo what others have said; it is imperative that a carrier know the state laws.

 

[QED]

With that said, if you have the funds to afford a good/great lawyer, you'll likely be able to avoid any criminal charges; civil court is another matter all together.

I'll echo what others have said; it is imperative that a carrier know the state laws.

You are not implying that if you are in a state that has "stand your ground" laws that you should start shooting as soon as you see an armed robbery in progress, are you?

 

[Road Rat]

About 20 years ago ABC (I believe) did a one hour program titled:

SHOOT? - DON'T SHOOT?

It was extremely informative and was put together with the video camera being your eyes for each event!!

Scary at how little information you have when you come upon a situation!!!

Be a community service if they would bring something like that back again.

 

[kstud]

You are not implying that if you are in a state that has "stand your ground" laws that you should start shooting as soon as you see an armed robbery in progress, are you?

How you came to this conclusion or interpretation is beyond me.

I simply stated the facts that there are states that have "stand your ground" laws like Texas, Florida, Nevada, etc...allowing no duty to retreat from the situation before resorting to lethal force. Nothing more, nothing less, don't interpret something that's not there.

As for lawyers, regardless of whether the shooting is 100% justified, there are many factors that come into play that can lead to imprisonment irregardless of justification. A lawyer (a good/great one) is an absolutely necessity after a shooting, period. Even in the case of a home invasion shooting, one should consult a self-defense attorney before making a statement. This is just sound advice and could possibly be the difference between prison time and a hero's recognition.

No where did I imply or advocated for pre-preemptive shooting of arm robbery suspects. It is up to the individual or individuals involved to make that determination. I simply stated simple facts regarding laws.

 

[Doc Hollywood]

If you ask me, I think that by the time you draw your weapon with intent to perforate another human being the law should be the least of your worries.What I mean is that by the time the gun comes out, you are in a situation where imminent death or grevious bodily harm is likely to result.
Imho when you make the decision to carry a weapon you have decided that your life and your ability to defend your life is more important than your fortune or your freedom. If you truly operate from the standpoint that your weapon is a last resort only utilized in dire need under desperate circumstances; it is likely the law will be on your side. Civilians do not enjoy the legal protections that Leo's do. there will be no internal investigations nor will you have your friends/colleagues as corroborating witnesses. Your actions,statements, and background will be scrutinized down to a microscopic level. If you have any doubt don't draw your weapon, when you do don't hesitate.

 

[triaxle]

If he s not going to shoot everyone in the place . I wont do anything till he comes to me , their might be 2 of them dont know . They can take the rag heads money . Dont care . be good witness.

 

[tirod]

Lots of good stuff. Let me take a completely different point of view.

I was an MP in the Army Reserve, and I work at the front counter of a parts store now. Here's the deal - as the senior old guy on the clock, I am the company's Agent in charge of the facility and how things are done. I may not be management - but I hold my own counsel to my responsibilities.

If someone comes in waving a gun, they can have all the money in all the cash drawers they want. No Problemo. It's my decision, not somebody else's, and I don't need or want an outsider to intrude on company business between me and the offender. I alone am the designated person with the legal responsibility to fulfill the customer's demands, and per policy, the Customer is Always Right.

We give them the owner's money and go home. My first responsibility is to go home. I don't need or want somebody intruding, escalating the situation, and creating a lethal confrontation in my store endangering my life.

Why escalate a $180 theft to murder in the first degree, with me as victim? Not everybody is some newbie who doesn't have a clue. Don't assume they even need protection.

By the way, I worked next door to a bank, they were robbed every year. Nobody ever got shot inside there. Some situations are just business as usual and don't even involve lethal force - despite the gun in someone's face. They never lacked for employment applications, either.

Just putting it out there as that guy behind the counter - and from a legal perspective, it's my store, my call. A Good Samaritan is wrong to assume a store employee is a powerless victim who needs to be "protected." You might be impeding their line of fire and complicating things. That clerk may be very capable of defending themself.

 

[QED]

How you came to this conclusion or interpretation is beyond me.

I simply stated the facts that there are states that have "stand your ground" laws like Texas, Florida, Nevada, etc...allowing no duty to retreat from the situation before resorting to lethal force. Nothing more, nothing less, don't interpret something that's not there.

As for lawyers, regardless of whether the shooting is 100% justified, there are many factors that come into play that can lead to imprisonment irregardless of justification. A lawyer (a good/great one) is an absolutely necessity after a shooting, period. Even in the case of a home invasion shooting, one should consult a self-defense attorney before making a statement. This is just sound advice and could possibly be the difference between prison time and a hero's recognition.

No where did I imply or advocated for pre-preemptive shooting of arm robbery suspects. It is up to the individual or individuals involved to make that determination. I simply stated simple facts regarding laws.

There was no conclusion, but a question to clarify your expressed concern about criminal and civil liability -- which doesn't really apply in case there is a justified self-defense shooting instead of a foolish "have gun will shoot" attitude when only a robbery (even armed) is highly probable. WHEN IN DOUBT WHETHER YOUR SHOOTING WOULD BE JUSTIFIABLE-- DON'T SHOOT!!!!

 

[RSanch111]

Everybody says: "It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six" until it's them doing a bit in a state prison for homicide. I bet a lot of them would have done things differently if given a second chance.

I try to make maximum effort at avoiding both.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Everybody says: "It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six" until it's them doing a bit in a state prison for homicide. I bet a lot of them would have done things differently if given a second chance.

I try to make maximum effort at avoiding both.

I'm gonna guess that the vast majority, if not all, of the people doing a bit in a state prison for homicide never gave that statement a second thought (or a first one, actually) . . .