Robbery Scenario: What to do?

lrrifleman said:
@Drummer Boy,

It is always good to ask questions, it is how you learn. Even great advice can get you deeper in s*** creek than where you really want to be. You need to balance what you think you know with what you are capable of doing.

This is a serious question: how proficient are you with the handgun that you are planning on carrying? One of the worst things you can do is decide on how you are going to react, and find out that your skills can't deliver what your mind has initiated! You need to hit the range and work on your shooting skills. Focus on accuracy and timed drills shooting at paper plates anywhere from 3 yards to 7 yards. What you can do may shock the living daylights out of you. Once you feel confident with your range skills, try a few IDPA matches. When you do, just remember, these targets aren't shooting back at you!

Once you see what you are physically capable of doing with a handgun may make many of your questions moot. You may show yourself that you are not skilled enough to intervene. Remember, your primary job is to make it back to your loved ones at the end of the day.
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I agree 100% that range time & training is very important. My original question was from the legal standpoint. On one hand, I don't want to stand by & watch someone be executed. On the other hand, I don't want to go to prison for possibly saving someone's life, based on the assumption that the perp was about to put a bullet through their head. There's no way of knowing what's in the robbers head. In my opinion, and this is not based on anything I've read or heard, when someone points a gun at someone's head or chest in a threatening manner, the situation has turned deadly. I may be wrong, but that's the way I see it.
 
I don't have time to read all the replies to this one but in my mind if your life, and anyone else's is not in immediate danger just stay out of it. Do your best to describe the robber to the cops and go home to live another day. Being a hero would be a great thing, being a dead guy, not so much.
 
Drummer Boy said:
I was just wondering what to do if ever faced with this scenario: I'm in the local convenience store, buying a candy bar, and in walks a dude in a hoodie & points a gun at the cashier, demanding money. As a CCH holder, what do I do? Is this already considered a deadly situation, with the cashier at gun point? Do I draw my pistol and shout " drop the gun, I will shoot you". I know that there are probably different circumstances that could determine how I react. For example, if there are bystanders in the line of fire. That would certainly change things.

I know there's no way of knowing what's going on in the robbers head. What if he's bluffing, and just wants to take the money & run. What if he's going to shoot the cashier, regardless. What if draw my pistol, shout a warning, and the robber shoots the cashier anyway? I know there's LEOs on this forum. As a CCH holder, what should I, or shouldn't I do? I want to do whats right, not do something that would make a bad situation worse! Any advice is much appreciated.
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What's going on in a robber's head is immaterial. The objective, reasonable man standard will apply.

Armed robbery, by definition, is a deadly force encounter.

Keep in mind that your actions might result in the death of another; however, because of the felony murder rule, the suspect will be charged should the death of another occur.

I cannot tell you how to respond to such a threat. There are far too many variables involved; e.g., layoff suspect in store.
 
I said before location ie. the State you are in matters. If you
shoot someone who is doing an armed robbery say with a knife
or a crowbar, not shooting might turn out okay, but then it might not. Here is a case i saw where a woman did not pull her gun
and kill the robber before he tried using the crow bar on a 14 year old. So not shooting an armed robber can also have consequences.
Subway Employee Lets a Pair of Violent Robbers Have it Their Way – Bearing Arms

I would hate to think some 14 year old was killed with a crowbar
because i did not shoot in time.
 
THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE
Questions and Answers
North Carolina
Sheriffs' Association
"Q. When can I use my handgun to protect a family member or to protect another person?"

"A. In protecting a family member or another person, you can only use deadly force (i.e., your handgun) if, under the circumstances, the family member or other person would be legally justified in using deadly force to protect himself or herself, i.e., to save the person from imminent threat of death, great bodily harm or sexual assault."

YOU are the only one who can make that choice. If I were the cashier, I would vote for a surreptitious draw followed by a head shot without warning. Just sayin'.
 
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Drummer Boy said:
I was just wondering what to do if ever faced with this scenario: I'm in the local convenience store, buying a candy bar, and in walks a dude in a hoodie & points a gun at the cashier, demanding money. As a CCH holder, what do I do?
Click to expand...

#1 stay out of convenient stores especially after dark.
Don't even stop at a self serve for gas and don't ever visit an ATM after dark, even a drive through.

#2 you don't get paid to be a hero worry about your own *** because no one else will and when it's all said and done you may find yourself in court getting sued.
My motto is, call 9/11 cause you have every right to chose how you protect yourself and I'm not out there to protect anyone but myself.

Your best defense is to stay aware and some of that awareness is mention in #1. Try not to ever put yourselve in vulnerable positions that can be avoided.
 
I'm amazed that so many people keep guns in their houses AND parked and unattended cars if they're so worried about being sued should they actually use a gun to defend someone else.
 
As someone said above, best not to go to convenience stores -- especially if it's in a bad part of town. Essentially, avoid the need to go to a convenience store. I find life is better when you go to a regular grocery during the day if possible, stock up all the goodies including your lottery ticket. I seldom need to leave the house in the evening. I do on occasion, but I generally ask myself if is really important for me to go someplace, or am I just giving-in to boredom. Firing-up the car and making a special trip for non-essential item(s) is uneven IMO. Of course, if it's on the way home and you truly need something, that's another matter. But these days, I don't want to run the car and expose myself to the potential of getting into a traffic accident for a 6 pack or some smokes -- not that I smoke.
 
Drummer Boy said:
I was just wondering what to do if ever faced with this scenario: I'm in the local convenience store, buying a candy bar, and in walks a dude in a hoodie & points a gun at the cashier, demanding money. As a CCH holder, what do I do? Is this already considered a deadly situation, with the cashier at gun point? Do I draw my pistol and shout " drop the gun, I will shoot you". I know that there are probably different circumstances that could determine how I react. For example, if there are bystanders in the line of fire. That would certainly change things.

I know there's no way of knowing what's going on in the robbers head. What if he's bluffing, and just wants to take the money & run. What if he's going to shoot the cashier, regardless. What if draw my pistol, shout a warning, and the robber shoots the cashier anyway? I know there's LEOs on this forum. As a CCH holder, what should I, or shouldn't I do? I want to do whats right, not do something that would make a bad situation worse! Any advice is much appreciated.
Click to expand...

Be a very good witness, get the best description you can of the robber and if possible get a description of the vehicle or if he flees on foot see what direction he went. Don't pursue if they're on foot. The police may want to utilize a K9 to track the subject so they need to know where he was last seen.

If the situation goes south then follow state law and what you were taught in your training.
 
If the BG has a gun pointed at the clerk and you shoot him, reflexively he will probably shoot the clerk.

Hopefully, the clerk will give him the money and he will be on his merry way.

I don't know what anyone else should do but I would seek cover or retreat and call 911.

Excellent food for thought.
 
Move slowly away from the robber as he has his gun pointed at a clerk, as long as he doesn't tell you to stop moving away. Look for a nearby cover of some kind. If the intent is only robbery he probably won't mind you moving somewhat away. If he tells you to stop, stop until he is focused on the clerk again -- and then run and get behind nearby cover and be ready to fire IF he comes after you. He probably doesn't expect to be fired upon so any kind of a hit or perhaps even a miss is likely to scare him off. As others have stated, you are not a cop and just robbery(even armed) is NOT a good or valid reason to start shooting anyone.
 
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Sing "Bohemian Rhapsody" and when you have their attention, run away.
 
So many variables in this. Just the way the store is setup as far as cover and visibility could chance everything.
A big difference that many have mentioned is your locality. Yes, a good part of it is state laws, another is local sentiment. In Montana if you shot a guy holding a gun on a clerk, you would be fine as long as you only shot the robber. First there is state law and then there is the fact that any prosecutor around here would know that going after you would cost him the next election. In New York, the laws would not favor you. Worse is that the percentage of people who would know much about what happened or pay attention to it would be way lower. The percentage of people who know what the prosecutors response was would be way lower, plus add in a more liberal population and you got problems. There it would be a small blip in the news, unless the press decided to make it a big story and the press is far more apt to have liberal views. Here it would be probably be the most interesting news of the year and a topic of conversation for everyone and the press isn't liberal, and the state has a history of citizens taking care of criminal problems. We have had vigilantes, Granville Stuart etc. Part of the little town I live ins proud history is 2 local bad guys came to town during the 4th of July and started harassing the citizens, the locals gunned them both down in the streets and really celebrated.

Me, I am going to take a serious look at the whole thing, could he see my hands and where my gun is? Can I quickly get outside or behind solid cover? If his gun goes off I want to be able to get mine ASAP as I go for cover. If he shoots the clerk he will probably shoot me too. How hyped up does this guy seem, Meth head looking? Never ever trust one of them to do anything reasonable. I have been in some bad situations and its amazing how much goes through your head in a hurry. I would hope he just takes the money and runs, but, he best be paying attention, because I will be, this is a very serious situation, figure he might pull the trigger at any time and I am going to be looking for the best chance of getting out of it alive. Never been in a gun thing before, but in some very serious situations more than once and to quote the guy in the Magnificent 7 "So far, so good".

To many people have done just what the robber wanted all the time hoping he wouldn't kill them right up till he did. I didn't reluctantly come to the point of deciding to pack a gun around all the time to do that. If I figure I have to do something I am going to take what I figure is my best bet and the law isn't going to be a big part of the calculation. That's the future and this is right now. The law isn't going to save me from getting shot or living if I do. If I live I can deal with that later. The clerk, if I could save him without making my situation worse, I would, just like I would try to save any one in a bad situation, but, I didn't get him the job that put him where he is at. Taking big risks to save people usually just makes things worse.

These type of "what ifs" make you think about things. Thing is you had best give these things some thought. If your packing a gun around and something does happen its a poor time to start without any kind of a plan. Have a plan, have a back up plan, be ready to modify or abandon both of them.
 
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You have the right to stop a deadly threat on your person, and in most jurisdictions, a deadly threat against a family member or another person. The key phrase is "stop a threat", not to apprehend or detain someone. Whether the threat is death or serious injury is subject to the "reasonable person" test, which is understandably vague. No witness to an armed robbery is ever out of danger.

Robbery is not about money, it is a violent felony with the threat of deadly force. The robber is prepared to kill anyone who gets in their way, without remorse. It is not his first felony, possibly not even his 50th (average number before getting caught).

If you order someone to "drop the gun" or "freeze," their first reaction will be to turn toward the sound of your voice. At that point the threat is against you, personally. Be prepared!

The best approach I have found to lesser threats is to assume verbal command. Don't engage in a dialog, don't say what you will do. Simply state what they must do, whether "drop the gun" or "move on." Saying you will "call the police" may have the opposite effect on someone up to no good. Anyone who gets that close knows police will take many minutes to arrive, if ever. It tells them you aren't prepared to defend yourself. Keep them guessing.

The best line I heard on TV was directed to the police/actor's partner, "call an ambulance." That was TV. Things on the street are getting real.
 
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Some DA MN good advise in this thread..

1st Know the laws in your state concerning lethal defense.

2nd If no one including yourself is in imminent danger you probably are best served doing nothing. Now if the robber is threatening to shoot somebody or does other physical harm to someone .... then that's a different story and will be decided by the courts if you act.

3rd: If the robber does have a gun out and you act..you say nothing..you just act. Hope you have lots of witnesses and store video.

Remember .... in most states unless you are in imminent danger or someone else is... you are on shakey ground using lethal force. Every time you do use lethal force the decisions about what will happen will be made by the DA and the civil attorney the man's family you shot hire........
 
cmort666 said:
You seem to be implying that, like Beethoven, McCartney and Lennon were deaf...
Click to expand...

Not at all; lots of very persuasive evidence indicates that their hearing was in no way impaired. In addition, as you know, they sold really lots of records and discs with both Yoko and Linda singing, although probably not as lead singers. So, Yoko and Linda may not have Vikki Carr's or Karen Carpenter's voice, for example -- but they stopped well short of dropping people with their voices. That's not to say that it couldn't be done...
 
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I can only give my personal opinion or action for my given state. In my state there's a "duty to retreat" in public places. That sums up exactly what I would have to do to avoid the aftermath of lethal force use.

Some states have the "stand your ground" laws allowing you to basically put down the threat without retreat.

Now if you had asked what happens when robbers enter my home, it'll be a totally different answer due to the "castle" doctrine.

With that said, if you have the funds to afford a good/great lawyer, you'll likely be able to avoid any criminal charges; civil court is another matter all together.

I'll echo what others have said; it is imperative that a carrier know the state laws.
 
kstud said:
With that said, if you have the funds to afford a good/great lawyer, you'll likely be able to avoid any criminal charges; civil court is another matter all together.

I'll echo what others have said; it is imperative that a carrier know the state laws.
Click to expand...

You are not implying that if you are in a state that has "stand your ground" laws that you should start shooting as soon as you see an armed robbery in progress, are you?
 
About 20 years ago ABC (I believe) did a one hour program titled:

SHOOT? - DON'T SHOOT?

It was extremely informative and was put together with the video camera being your eyes for each event!!

Scary at how little information you have when you come upon a situation!!!:eek:

Be a community service if they would bring something like that back again.:)
 
QED said:
You are not implying that if you are in a state that has "stand your ground" laws that you should start shooting as soon as you see an armed robbery in progress, are you?
Click to expand...

How you came to this conclusion or interpretation is beyond me.

I simply stated the facts that there are states that have "stand your ground" laws like Texas, Florida, Nevada, etc...allowing no duty to retreat from the situation before resorting to lethal force. Nothing more, nothing less, don't interpret something that's not there.

As for lawyers, regardless of whether the shooting is 100% justified, there are many factors that come into play that can lead to imprisonment irregardless of justification. A lawyer (a good/great one) is an absolutely necessity after a shooting, period. Even in the case of a home invasion shooting, one should consult a self-defense attorney before making a statement. This is just sound advice and could possibly be the difference between prison time and a hero's recognition.

No where did I imply or advocated for pre-preemptive shooting of arm robbery suspects. It is up to the individual or individuals involved to make that determination. I simply stated simple facts regarding laws.
 
If you ask me, I think that by the time you draw your weapon with intent to perforate another human being the law should be the least of your worries.What I mean is that by the time the gun comes out, you are in a situation where imminent death or grevious bodily harm is likely to result.
Imho when you make the decision to carry a weapon you have decided that your life and your ability to defend your life is more important than your fortune or your freedom. If you truly operate from the standpoint that your weapon is a last resort only utilized in dire need under desperate circumstances; it is likely the law will be on your side. Civilians do not enjoy the legal protections that Leo's do. there will be no internal investigations nor will you have your friends/colleagues as corroborating witnesses. Your actions,statements, and background will be scrutinized down to a microscopic level. If you have any doubt don't draw your weapon, when you do don't hesitate.
 
If he s not going to shoot everyone in the place . I wont do anything till he comes to me , their might be 2 of them dont know . They can take the rag heads money . Dont care . be good witness.
 
Lots of good stuff. Let me take a completely different point of view.

I was an MP in the Army Reserve, and I work at the front counter of a parts store now. Here's the deal - as the senior old guy on the clock, I am the company's Agent in charge of the facility and how things are done. I may not be management - but I hold my own counsel to my responsibilities.

If someone comes in waving a gun, they can have all the money in all the cash drawers they want. No Problemo. It's my decision, not somebody else's, and I don't need or want an outsider to intrude on company business between me and the offender. I alone am the designated person with the legal responsibility to fulfill the customer's demands, and per policy, the Customer is Always Right.

We give them the owner's money and go home. My first responsibility is to go home. I don't need or want somebody intruding, escalating the situation, and creating a lethal confrontation in my store endangering my life.

Why escalate a $180 theft to murder in the first degree, with me as victim? Not everybody is some newbie who doesn't have a clue. Don't assume they even need protection.

By the way, I worked next door to a bank, they were robbed every year. Nobody ever got shot inside there. Some situations are just business as usual and don't even involve lethal force - despite the gun in someone's face. They never lacked for employment applications, either.

Just putting it out there as that guy behind the counter - and from a legal perspective, it's my store, my call. A Good Samaritan is wrong to assume a store employee is a powerless victim who needs to be "protected." You might be impeding their line of fire and complicating things. That clerk may be very capable of defending themself.
 
kstud said:
How you came to this conclusion or interpretation is beyond me.

I simply stated the facts that there are states that have "stand your ground" laws like Texas, Florida, Nevada, etc...allowing no duty to retreat from the situation before resorting to lethal force. Nothing more, nothing less, don't interpret something that's not there.

As for lawyers, regardless of whether the shooting is 100% justified, there are many factors that come into play that can lead to imprisonment irregardless of justification. A lawyer (a good/great one) is an absolutely necessity after a shooting, period. Even in the case of a home invasion shooting, one should consult a self-defense attorney before making a statement. This is just sound advice and could possibly be the difference between prison time and a hero's recognition.

No where did I imply or advocated for pre-preemptive shooting of arm robbery suspects. It is up to the individual or individuals involved to make that determination. I simply stated simple facts regarding laws.
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There was no conclusion, but a question to clarify your expressed concern about criminal and civil liability -- which doesn't really apply in case there is a justified self-defense shooting instead of a foolish "have gun will shoot" attitude when only a robbery (even armed) is highly probable. WHEN IN DOUBT WHETHER YOUR SHOOTING WOULD BE JUSTIFIABLE-- DON'T SHOOT!!!!
 
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Everybody says: "It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six" until it's them doing a bit in a state prison for homicide. I bet a lot of them would have done things differently if given a second chance.

I try to make maximum effort at avoiding both.
 
RSanch111 said:
Everybody says: "It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six" until it's them doing a bit in a state prison for homicide. I bet a lot of them would have done things differently if given a second chance.

I try to make maximum effort at avoiding both.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna guess that the vast majority, if not all, of the people doing a bit in a state prison for homicide never gave that statement a second thought (or a first one, actually) . . .
 
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