Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P

You can get many opinions on this subject, but it all comes down to what a shooter can handle. That's a personal and objective thing based on skill level. There can be a significant difference in velocity between the factory loads the original poster mentioned, but how much this matters in a real life situation is subject to debate.

Probably the best thing to do is get a variety of ammunition and shoot them at targets, and not up real close like many people do, conveniently using the excuse that deadly encounters only happen at very short distances. If one can hit his target consistently at 25 yards, he'll have no trouble up closer. 25 yard shooting will blatantly point out a shooter's skill or lack of same and may be a determining factor regarding which ammunition to use.

Personally, I find .357 Magnum muzzle blast horrendous from a snubnose gun and the recoil is quite unpleasant as well. These are loadings best reserved for very experienced handgunners that shoot a lot and can take advantage of any alleged benefit provided by greater velocity.
 
Rpg said:
My experience shooting critters with a handgun has convinced me that hard cast swc projectiles perform much better than projectiles designed to expand.

Folks enjoy reading ballistic tables and looking at ballistic gel tests. Unfortunately, folks imagine that these things are determinative of effectiveness. My experience suggests that reasoning is hyperbolic.

Muzzle energy overstates effectiveness because it overemphasizes velocity in a handgun. Momentum is a much better predictor of effectiveness in flesh and bone than muzzel energy.

Velocity is important only in that you need enough to obtain adequate penetration. Sacrificing bullet weight to obtain higher velocity is a fool's errand in my opinion.

I'm very skeptical about expanding bullets in handguns, particularly short barreled handguns.

I see no benefit in trying to squeeze more velocity from a short barreled handgun with 357 as opposed to 38 special.
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My feelings exactly.
I carry and use nothing but hard or soft semi-wadcutters, or hollow-based full wadcutters.
Have not fired a jacketed bullet in over 20 years in a handgun, not counting cheap ball loads for practice only, and don't plan to in the forseeable future
 
colt_saa said:
Did you know there is a holster for that

NY-reload2s.jpg
I just got this one late last year.

I really like it. Both can even be drawn at the same time.
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Where can I find one! That is awesome!
 
My only .357 snub is a M640. With the proper grips, I have no real issue with accuracy or decent follow up shots using most magnum ammo.
Yes, it's a little on the exciting side, and not something you wanna run 200 rounds a session through, but entirely doable.

Everyone has had their walk and experiences. I have this niggling feeling that prevents me being completely comfortable carrying .38 +P's.
It was what I was carrying in my issued M66 back in the early '80's. To date me, it was S&W-brand .38 Spl. 125 gr. JHP +P.
I was involved in a shooting where I placed four (4) of those around the sternum of an EDP rushing at me with a raised butcher knife.
They had all the effect of a water-pistol.
I was able to deliver a CNS shot that essentially saved my posterior.

So, I'm pretty sure that current technology bullet design has come a long way and performs better now. But, these misgivings still reside in a corner of my noggin.
 
I've found that shooting .357 out of either my 340M&P, or my 340PD (both no lock models), is too difficult from the standpoint of accurate follow up shots. I carry the Speer +P in four chambers and the last round is a 125 grain magnum. I don't know if this has solved anything but at least I have one round of .357 on board.
 
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blues7 said:
You may also find the info provided by Lucky Gunner on this page of interest for comparison purposes.

It is specifically tailored to .38 and .357 ammo though the gel utilized is not the same as that used in the FBI protocol nor Dr. Roberts' testing.

That said, the penetration, expansion and images provided are interesting.
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None of the other comments make as much noise as this one above. There is real data that can be used. I'm changing my .38 load because of it. Thank you.

Lessons learned:
1. Choose your bullets wisely in a 2" .38 staying lighter for expansion.
2. Muzzle velocity must exceed 860 fps for reliable expansion.
3. A 2" .357 doesn't have expansion problems.
 
.357 Magnum loads will generate higher velocities, even in snubs. However, I don't live in a vacuum so just that aspect in isolation isn't a very practical question for me. Even if I could control it well, other factors include increased muzzle blast and flash. I suppose one could use a mid-range load, like the Speer SB-GDHP, but then the velocity advantage is reduced.

"Stopping power" is a very difficult concept to quantify. When someone mentions how powerful the 125gr .357 Magnum JHP is, I think of the LEO who was hit with that round in the heart, but was still able to overcome his (or her? I can't remember...) attacker and survive. I also remember reading a couple of stories of attackers who were stopped instantly with one or two rounds of Federal 125gr Nyclads, which some consider anemic for self defense. What I have seen is data showing that among the typical handgun service calibers, there isn't much difference between them in terms of how well they can stop an attacker. I probably wouldn't worry over whether I should use .357 Magnum over .38 Special in a snub. I'd just pick a good self defense load that I can shoot well and leave it at that.

Just my opinion.

FWIW, even when I had a 3" 65, it was kept loaded with .38 Special +P loads.
 
Which load is "better" from a snubnose -- .38+P or .357 Mag.-- is a matter of opinion. Which is faster is a matter of fact -- it will always be the .357.

Across the board, regardless of caliber, the load that is fastest in a long barrel will be fastest in a short barrel. Just as with engines, "There is no substitute for cubic inches."
 
I would hate to touch off a full throttle .357 in an automobile or my home without hearing protection.
 
Since the .38 folks demand to be treated as equals...which carry load do you have that expands to 0.60"and penetrates 15"?
You have two choices for functional carry ammo: Winchester 130 gr. PDX and Ranger +P.
They don't meet the 0.60" expansion. They can't penetrate 15" expanded either. Nothing in a 2" .38 is capable of doing that, but these loads are actually doing something to transfer their energy. And then we have the Hydrashok... laziest bullet in the West. It might as well have a gone to lunch sign on the front of it. The cholesterol involved might increase lethality.
I'm not asking for people to bow down to the .357 and cast aside their .38's. I'm asking for folks to be reasonable and appreciate their .38's for what they are: mild shooting, convenient, aesthetically pleasing, accurate and capable. I'm asking that they realize that while it's a great gun, it's not a .357 and it's not on the same level as a .357. They're different and size matters in both power and convenience.
 
In my limited real-world experience humanoids struck by .38 s&w special wadcutters and semi-wadcutters ceased being threats upon being hit. I fail to understand why some threats would continue to be threats if hit by accurate fire from a .38 s&w special. Of course as the .357 remington magnum and .38 s&w special +p are 'faster' .38 specials they would also do the job, certainly no worse, maybe better, (I mean how much dead-er than dead can one be.) I also fail to understand how a humanoid hit with inaccurate fire (say in the glute or thumb) by a .357 would be more incapacitated than if hit by inaccurate fire from a .38+p or garden variety .38. Being more powerful I am certain the humanoid hit would sustain a greater amount of tissue damage, but I don't see how that translates into incapacitation with periphreal hits or how the greater energy transfer is meaningful in cns or cartio hits.
As a disclaimer I might add that with all due repect I think Dr. Roberts is doing a phenomenal job of measuring with great precision (I am sorry, here) the wrong variable. In my limited real-world experience hollow points fired from snubbies don't expand. Flat lead metplats crush and destroy tissue. Velocity is not as important as momentum. Expansion is irrelevant, the amount of tissue disrupted is significant. The placement of a projectile is paramount and no amount of expansion can correct poor placement. (Just my $0.02)
 
Well if we don't need expansion...we could just all shoot hydrashoks...Lord knows they don't expand. In my limited real world experience, you'd better like talking to the person you shoot or shoot a whole lotta bullets.
 
THE LATESEST WALYWORLD GUN RAG HOGWASH.

forrestinmathews said:
Since the .38 folks demand to be treated as equals...which carry load do you have that expands to 0.60"and penetrates 15"?
You have two choices for functional carry ammo: Winchester 130 gr. PDX and Ranger +P.
They don't meet the 0.60" expansion. They can't penetrate 15" expanded either. Nothing in a 2" .38 is capable of doing that, but these loads are actually doing something to transfer their energy. And then we have the Hydrashok... laziest bullet in the West. It might as well have a gone to lunch sign on the front of it. The cholesterol involved might increase lethality.
I'm not asking for people to bow down to the .357 and cast aside their .38's. I'm asking for folks to be reasonable and appreciate their .38's for what they are: mild shooting, convenient, aesthetically pleasing, accurate and capable. I'm asking that they realize that while it's a great gun, it's not a .357 and it's not on the same level as a .357. They're different and size matters in both power and convenience.

Making statements as "ABSOLUTES" is just ridiculous. Nobody since Steve McQueen in the blob has been attacked by gelatin. I'm leaning more & more towards the 38 special hard cast/ wide meplat/ flat nosed boolits, & they don't need warp speed to work well (on animals). Fabric clogging up HP's is a theoretical concern. At arms length/bad breath range, will it really matter? Maybe yes/maybe no, each individual case will be different. Who knows? I'm certainly not gonna tell someone else what they have to use.
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Making statements as "ABSOLUTES" is just ridiculous. Nobody since Steve McQueen in the blob has been attacked by gelatin. I'm leaning more & more towards the 38 special hard cast/ wide meplat/ flat nosed boolits, & they don't need warp speed to work well (on animals). Fabric clogging up HP's is a theoretical concern. At arms length/bad breath range, will it really matter? Maybe yes/maybe no, each individual case will be different. Who knows? I'm certainly not gonna tell someone else what they have to use.

Is there way I can like this twice. I was beginning to think I was the only one to believe in personal choice.
 
TomkinsSP said:
...
As a disclaimer I might add that with all due repect I think Dr. Roberts is doing a phenomenal job of measuring with great precision (I am sorry, here) the wrong variable. In my limited real-world experience hollow points fired from snubbies don't expand. Flat lead metplats crush and destroy tissue. Velocity is not as important as momentum. Expansion is irrelevant, the amount of tissue disrupted is significant. The placement of a projectile is paramount and no amount of expansion can correct poor placement. (Just my $0.02)
Click to expand...

My disclaimer is the only thing I'm an expert at is not being an expert at anything.

Been a while ago. I had read about a group of trauma surgeons that were making the point that they weren't seeing the JHP expansion in real human shootings for bullets that had been shown to expand totally reliably in ballistic gel. They suggested in real world shootings, 148gr wadcutters did as much damage in real humans as JHP's because the JHP's weren't expanding. They didn't seem to have the clout to overcome the "FBI says" lobby.

Since I'm not a trauma surgeon or a ballistics expert, I don't have a good way to judge which side is true. I can look and see some pretty smart, BTDT people aren't "all in" with the results from ballistic gel testing being the holy grail of bullet performance.
 
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Try this on for size...I have recovered .380 and .45 hydrashok bullets from deer and I found that the majority of the bullets failed to penetrate through major muscle groups or failed expand no matter where they impacted. They looked similar to the gelatin recovered bullets for the .38 hydrashok 2" barrel.

I was going off the test data which was based on hollowpoints. Go ahead and cobble together any load you like and make it work. Talk about meplats and tissue disturbance to keep the .38 level with the .357 in your mind. Guess you need something to talk about since hollowpoint expansion isn't going so well.
I'd like to see a wad cutter load that had some oomph to it. I'm sure it will work fairly well and might even offer controlled penetration and some energy transfer.
 
Here's a real-life simile for you: Would you rather get smacked in the head with a baseball bat weighing 32 oz., or one weighing 40 oz., with each barrel-head swung at the same velocity? No helmet allowed.

Which one would be more effective in putting you to your knees? :eek:
 
ExcitableBoy said:
Here's a real-life simile for you: Would you rather get smacked in the head with a baseball bat weighing 32 oz., or one weighing 40 oz., with each barrel-head swung at the same velocity? No helmet allowed.

Which one would be more effective in putting you to your knees? :eek:
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Which one would make you stop doing whatever you were doing to get smacked? Or would you just keep doing it since it is only a 32 oz?

BTW I have both a 32 oz, and a 40 oz. sledge I don't think I would volunteer to get clocked with either one. Your mileage might vary.
 
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ExcitableBoy said:
Here's a real-life simile for you: Would you rather get smacked in the head with a baseball bat weighing 32 oz., or one weighing 40 oz., with each barrel-head swung at the same velocity? No helmet allowed.

Which one would be more effective in putting you to your knees? :eek:
Click to expand...

Ah, but what if I can swing the 32 ounce bat 50 percent faster than the 40 ounce bat???

In all seriousness the same bullet fired from a max pressure .357 load will come out of the same length barrel faster than a max pressure .38 or .38 +p. Or you could shoot a heavier bullet at the same or a marginally higher velocity.

.357 is empirically more powerful than .38 +p or .38.

BUT DOES IT MATTER?

I have personally seen a half-dozen cadavers dead from 148 grain TARGET wadcutters.

Dead is dead, doesn't matter if you are run over by my 250 hp pickup truck or a 375 hp semi.

And a hit on the wrist of an assailant with a .357 is only going to be slightly less irrelevant than a hit by a .38.
 
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In all my shooting life I shot maybe 50 38 specials, just does nothing for me. I am a maggie kinda guy. I love the 357 mag's power, control and usability. I carry a S&W 686-4 seven shooter in a 2.5" barrel. It works for me. I load it up with Gold Dot 135gr 357 magnum for the short barrel. It has 935 fps. Empties its energy in its target with six more on its way.

Do I feel lucky? ... damn right I do.

and my hearing is just fine.

 
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To those that think the 357 is so much louder. :rolleyes: You're wrong.


db Environmental noise
0 Threshold of hearing
10 Normal breathing
20 Rusting leaves
30 Whisper at 30 feet
40 Quiet street
50 Interior home noise
60 Conversation
70 Crowded restaurant
75 Kitchen appliances
80 City traffic
85 Hearing damage possible
90 Lawn mower
100 Chain shaw
120 Threshold of pain
120 Siren
134 .22 LR rifle
140 Jet engine at take-off
150 .410 shotgun
152 .22 LR pistol
153 20 gauge shotgun
155 .223 rifle
155 .25 pistol
156 12 gauge shotgun
156 .30-.30 rifle
156 .308 rifle
156 .44 Special revolver
157 .22 Magnum pistol
157 .45 ACP pistol
158 .380 ACP pistol
158 .38 Special revolver
159 .30-06
160 9mm Para pistol
163 .41 Magnum revolver
164 .357 Magnum revolver
164 .44 Magnum revolver
 
Mehutch said:
I load it up with Gold Dot 135gr 357 magnum for the short barrel. It has 935 fps.
Click to expand...

I load my 38 special snub with 138 grain Bayou Bullets WC at 900 fps. Recoil is not bad, as well as muzzle flash, and decibels. I don't worry about the dumping, as long as the bad guy has holes deep in him,or her to stop.

Kanewpadle said:
To those that think the 357 is so much louder. :rolleyes: You're wrong.
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Actual they are louder, your own post proves it.

"For every 3 dBAs over 85dBA, the permissible exposure time before possible damage can occur is cut in half."

Dangerous Decibels >> How Loud is Too Loud?
 
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A different way of saying what Walkingwolf said. A 3db increase doubles the power of the sound (and potential for hearing loss). A 10db increase doubles the perceived volume.

From the chart, a .357 has 4x more damaging sound pressure than a .38 Special (6db) and sounds 60% louder.
 
Which part do you think is ridiculous? Understanding how the db sound pressure scale actually works. Understanding that sounds over 85db, including pistol shots, will damage your hearing whether you notice them or not. Or both?
 
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