Snubby Carry Load. 357 or 38 +P

[Kanewpadle]

Reread and comprehend grasshopper.

 

[Screwball]

I had a 642-1 since 2009. Went with it for a few reasons... mainly the weight, and also, I was never a fan of .357 Magnum. Love .44 Magnum, but don't feel .357 gives the performance that the negatives (noise, recoil, etc) warrant. I'm sure that will piss some people off, but I don't own a .357 Magnum. Was considering a TRR8, but more because it is an eight shot revolver than being a .357.

Ballistically, I converted my 642-1 over to 9mm. If you chronograph velocities, a good standard pressure 147 grain 9mm (Hornady XTP) leaves the barrel roughly the same speed as a 110 grain .38 +P (Hornady CD). At the same speed, the heavier bullet is better. Recoil is on par.

 

[Walkingwolf]

One of the reasons that auto cartridges are suited to short barrels is their lower case volume. Less volume, less powder, less muzzle flash, though it does increase pressure. I seat my wadcutters almost flush to lesson case capactiy, then with a powder like longshot I can get impressive fps without the large muzzle flash, and higher decibels.

 

[Mehutch]

4 times I had to pull my weapon to stop an aggressor. Each time in self defense, each time I didn't have to fire at them, each time I did not have my ear muffs or plugs on. It was the last thing on my mind. Nor was the muzzle flash a .357 can produce. However I do remember "Don´t me mata!" was very loud. Translation not needed.

Now I don't want to shoot anyone, but if I have to I'll take some hearing loss over life lost, or family loss, that is what I'll do.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

The simple point is that if you are loading for the same velocity you will retain more terminal energy with a heavier bullet, thus more effective.

Of course, you have to be able to hit what you're aiming at.

 

[Jupiter01]

Personally, I find .357 Magnum muzzle blast horrendous from a snubnose gun and the recoil is quite unpleasant as well. These are loadings best reserved for very experienced handgunners that shoot a lot and can take advantage of any alleged benefit provided by greater velocity.

HORRNEDOUS is a very good description...even in a longer barrel/heavier gun, it is true! Especially for people like me who have a genetic condition where loud and/or sharp noises cause all the symptoms of an anxiety attack! I sometimes flinch even when shooting my .22s with hearing protection! That is a terrible affliction for one who loves guns and shooting as much as I do!

I figure that hits on target are most important, and as in IPSIC, I can't miss fast enough to win! I like shooting .38 Special (not +P) loads for less recoil, and more shooting enjoyment. But...I do have a supply of the +P 135 Speer Gold Dots put by, and carry, in case the unthinkable happens. If I thought I could get away with .22 Long Rifle, I would, but until then...

 

[Walkingwolf]

I carry .22 long rifle in a snub(1 1/8" barrel) every day. It resides in my front pocket every second, minute, hour. It is still kinda loud with that short barrel. Gonna order a Black Widow next week, it has a two inch barrel, should tone it down some.

 

[BB57]

I've used a chronograph for about 20 years now and the powder makes a difference with a .357 Mag in a snub nose.

The revolver itself also makes a difference, as bullet placement matters, and shooting .357 Mag in a small revolver you can't control is a poor choice that will get you less than optimum results.

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Contrary to popular internet rumor, the slow burning colloidal ball powders that produce maximum velocity in a 6" barrel, will not produce maximum velocity in a 2 1/2" or 3" barrel. Those heavier charges of slow burning powder will however produce a lot more recoil, so shooters think they are getting more velocity, when they are often getting 100-150 fps less velocity.

For example a max load of Win 296 and a 125 gr bullet will give me 1,132 fps, while a maximum load of Unique will give me a velocity of 1,296 fps with the same bullet in the same 3" revolver. That's a loss of 161 fps with the slower burning powder in a short barrel.

In comparison, a .38 +P load using IMR 800X with the same 125 gr bullet will give me 1,030 fps in the same revolver. That's a loss of 102 fps compared to the slow burning powder .357 Mag, and 266 fps compared to a .357 Mag load optimized for a short barrel.

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How much difference does 1,030 fps, 1,132 fps or 1,296 fps make? It really depends on the bullet. Provided it's operating within it's performance envelop you should get adequate penetration and expansion.

That's almost certain with the .357 Mag, given that there are not many poor performing .357 Mag loads, even in a snub nose revolver. However, you need to be a little more selective with .38 +P loads in a snub nose.

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I usually carry .357 Mag in my 3" Model 13, 2 1/2" Model 66 or 1/2" Model 686+ revolvers because they are comfortable enough to shoot with full power loads that I will practice with them enough to become very good with them.

It's worth noting here that I use a load that is optimized for a short barrel not just for the improved velocity, but also due to the reduced recoil from a powder charge that weighs half as much.

However, with my 3" Model 60, I'll carry the above mentioned .38 +P load as it offers adequate terminal performance while still having comfortable enough recoil to practice with it extensively. In contrast, .357 Mag loads in a J Magnum frame revolver, even a steel framed J Magnum revolver, are not comfortable enough to shoot extensively, and thus you won't shoot it enough to become truly proficient with it.

 

[BB57]

The simple point is that if you are loading for the same velocity you will retain more terminal energy with a heavier bullet, thus more effective.

Of course, you have to be able to hit what you're aiming at. :roll eyes:

If you are loading for the same velocity, you'll get more energy with a heavier bullet. That's obvious.

You'll also get more momentum with the heavier bullet and that tends to increase penetration as does the improved sectional density of the heavier bullet.

Even at slower velocity you'll potentially have more momentum with a heavier bullet and all thing being equal, you'll always have more sectional density.

However, at social shooting distances, you won't "retain" more energy. Longer bullets tend to have higher BCs, for example a 110 gr XTP has a BC of .131, a 125 gr XTP has a BC of .151 and a 158 gr XTP has a BC of .206. The heavier bullets do retain velocity better, but at the short ranges involved in a self defense shoot it makes no difference what so ever.

 

[TomkinsSP]

You are not wrong terminolgically. But I belive the point is that heavier bullet retains more ENERGY, I would call it momentum, through garments, skin, bone, muscle, organs, etc. In my experience heavier bullets penetrate and terminate humanoid threats better than faster moving lighter bullets. Relativly heavy flat faced bullets crush and destroy tissue in thier path, even at moderate velocity.

 

[white cloud]

In all my shooting life I shot maybe 50 38 specials, just does nothing for me. I am a maggie kinda guy. I love the 357 mag's power, control and usability. I carry a S&W 686-4 seven shooter in a 2.5" barrel. It works for me. I load it up with Gold Dot 135gr 357 magnum for the short barrel. It has 935 fps. Empties its energy in its target with six more on its way.

Do I feel lucky? ... damn right I do.

and my hearing is just fine.

You have a nice looking revolver.

 

[ExcitableBoy]

TomkinsSP:

Pragmatists, and "been there, done that" people, usually have a better grasp of the realities of the physics involved in bullet vs. flesh and bone. Conversely, theoreticians and numbers crunchers are usually just that... theoreticians and numbers crunchers.

I am heavily on the side of Category 1.

 

[forrestinmathews]

For example a max load of Win 296 and a 125 gr bullet will give me 1,132 fps, while a maximum load of Unique will give me a velocity of 1,296 fps with the same bullet in the same 3" revolver. That's a loss of 161 fps with the slower burning powder in a short barrel.

In comparison, a .38 +P load using IMR 800X with the same 125 gr bullet will give me 1,030 fps in the same revolver. That's a loss of 102 fps compared to the slow burning powder .357 Mag, and 266 fps compared to a .357 Mag load optimized for a short barrel.

----

How much difference does 1,030 fps, 1,132 fps or 1,296 fps make? It really depends on the bullet. Provided it's operating within it's performance envelop you should get adequate penetration and expansion.

That's almost certain with the .357 Mag, given that there are not many poor performing .357 Mag loads, even in a snub nose revolver. However, you need to be a little more selective with .38 +P loads in a snub nose.

----

I usually carry .357 Mag in my 3" Model 13, 2 1/2" Model 66 or 1/2" Model 686+ revolvers because they are comfortable enough to shoot with full power loads that I will practice with them enough to become very good with them.

It's worth noting here that I use a load that is optimized for a short barrel not just for the improved velocity, but also due to the reduced recoil from a powder charge that weighs half as much.

However, with my 3" Model 60, I'll carry the above mentioned .38 +P load as it offers adequate terminal performance while still having comfortable enough recoil to practice with it extensively. In contrast, .357 Mag loads in a J Magnum frame revolver, even a steel framed J Magnum revolver, are not comfortable enough to shoot extensively, and thus you won't shoot it enough to become truly proficient with it.

You mean a load of 21.0-22.0 grains of Win 296? Sort of a small window there with the 125 grain bullet and they don't really feel any different. People who attempt to shoot this in a scandium frame are crazy. I've done it and split my thumb wide open on the cylinder release. It was a fun three shots before I started bleeding. I fired the last two to see how the grips worked covered in blood.
I have fired 100 rounds of full house .357 158 grain at a time through the gun. Not really impressive or oppressive. However, the 296 load is abusive. There is not recoil so much as extremely high torque muzzle flip. Any other ammunition without a heavy roll crimp is getting pulled during recoil. That said, it has crowd pleasing potential. The flash and report make it an absolute show stopper. I'd like to see something keep coming in the direction of than kind of violence. 1200 fps is a great window for the Hornady XTP and Barnes xpb.

 

[BB57]

You mean a load of 21.0-22.0 grains of Win 296? Sort of a small window there with the 125 grain bullet and they don't really feel any different. People who attempt to shoot this in a scandium frame are crazy. I've done it and split my thumb wide open on the cylinder release. It was a fun three shots before I started bleeding. I fired the last two to see how the grips worked covered in blood.
I have fired 100 rounds of full house .357 158 grain at a time through the gun. Not really impressive or oppressive. However, the 296 load is abusive. There is not recoil so much as extremely high torque muzzle flip. Any other ammunition without a heavy roll crimp is getting pulled during recoil. That said, it has crowd pleasing potential. The flash and report make it an absolute show stopper. I'd like to see something keep coming in the direction of than kind of violence. 1200 fps is a great window for the Hornady XTP and Barnes xpb.

Yes, exactly. It's about 10 grains more than the powder weight required for a maximum pressure load using a medium speed powder and that extra 10 grains exits the muzzle at about 3 times the muzzle velocity of the projectile. Even if it fully combusts (which it does not in a short barrel), that gas still has just as much mass as before, and generates a commensurate amount of recoil.

I suspect that higher mass of exiting gas is also what generates the increased torque and muzzle flip effects you've noted.

 

[LarryMNH]

I limit my carry to .38 +P as much for the control, which isn't what it used to be 40 years ago, as the deafening sound level.

The .357 IMHO is considerably louder than a .38 and if I ever need it for defensive purposes. Probably no ear protection.

The Db numbers in the listing show that there is only a 6 Db rise for .38 to .357. Seems to feel more significant than it appears with only what looks like a small number of a 6 DB increase.

My recollection many years ago was that the Saturn 5 rocket was the loudest sustained sound ever created by man.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is from an article I looked up.
"Unsurprisingly, the highest sound power levels ever recorded at Stennis was during testing for the Saturn I-C stage, the first stage of the Saturn V that used five F-1 engines to generate 7.5 million pounds of thrust. One test registered about 204 decibels, while more recent rockets, which generate between 100,000 and 650,000 pounds of thrust, typically generate around 195 decibels at launch."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Makes me think that 164 Db is pretty loud.

Larry

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

I carry 135gr Speed Gold Dot .357 Short Barrel in my S&W 640-1,It's basically a 38/44 load with a great expanding projectile.

 

[Fastbolt]

This purpose of this thread isn't about recoil but more so bullet performance. Let's assume you can the control the recoil of the 357 in a snubby. Would you carry that load? Or would you carry 38 +P?

I've heard many times that with the loss in velocity with 357 that you might as well carry 38 +P. But I simply refuse to believe that the 38 +P would perform better than the 357 even with loss in velocity. Maybe I'm wrong.

I also understand that much of this depends on the load and bullet design you choose. Depending on bullet design, faster isn't always better.

Yes, full power .357 Magnum still offers some added velocity when fired from a 2" barrel.

The question is, at what point do the disadvantages of firing Magnum loads from a diminutive 5-shot snub - particularly a really light model - overshadow the advantage of a little more velocity, for any particular shooter?

I typically carry one or another of a few modern +P loads in my pair of M&P 340's, even though I've used Magnum loads for occasional quals and drills.

I used to save my Magnum ammo for my SP101DAO 2.25" snub, since it's weight (and Quad-Porting) made it a pleasure to shoot, even with the stoutest factory Magnum loads. I used that all-steel snub Ruger for many years, until I finally decided to sell it this year. I just didn't carry it very much anymore because its weight made it a belt gun.

I want to be able to put fast 5 rounds clustered into a fist-sized group, fired 1-handed, hip/indexed shooting out to 3yds, and 2-handed/flash-sighted out to 5-7yds, in no more than 2-3 seconds ... and it's a lot easier to accomplish using +P loads, than Magnum loads.

 

[bigwheelzip]

This purpose of this thread isn't about recoil but more so bullet performance. Let's assume you can the control the recoil of the 357 in a snubby. Would you carry that load? Or would you carry 38 +P?

Though you didn't phrase it that way, maybe your question is more pertinent to "J" frame carriers.

My only snub is a 2 1/2" "L" frame with rubber grips, and magnum loads are fully comfortable for me to shoot up to 158gr.
Unless woods walking, it carries Federal 125gr JHP .357 (C357B). That goes for all the .357 handguns. Not much science behind the decision. I chose it because of it's reputation and I like the way it goes to POA. Makes the best groups of any ammo I use.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Goods points both. Guess I should have been more specific. I'm shooting one of these.

Even with hot 125gr loads recoil is manageable as are follow up shots. I see no reason to load it with 38 +P.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Even with hot 125gr loads recoil is manageable as are follow up shots.

Ohhh nice, high polish stainless. My Bling senses are tingling.

To me, your statement there, is your answer. As long as you have it with you, and can use it, that's the thing that matters.